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View Diary: Negotiations over universal background checks collapse. Senate committee marking up four gun bills (207 comments)

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  •  Put the emphasis for background checks on (6+ / 0-)

    the individual and not on the point of sale.  Implement a permit system with reasonable cost and make it shall issue.  The background check can be much more thorough and it makes registration concerns irrelevant.

    An alternative approach would be to have the FFLs perform a type of notarization on the transfer paperwork as a 'proof' that the checks were performed.  The paperwork goes with the gun and the individual but there are no records kept by the FFL or the govt.  If there is ever a question of legality, the proofed paperwork would be sufficient documentation.

    •  That's not the worst idea. Even as an (3+ / 0-)

      additional measure.  Paperwork with with each firearm sold saying the background check was clear and who the seller and purchaser were.

      That protects the new owner if it turns out the gun was used in a robbery or some shit, too.  There's a paper trail to start working backward on.

      income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

      by JesseCW on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:58:38 AM PST

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    •  "Papers, please."...? (4+ / 0-)

      ...that where your suggestion is headed?

      What happens if no papers? How does anyone know that the papers in hand are in order and valid?

      Just trying to get an idea of where this suggestion leads...

      Cheers.

      •  A more documented society (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BvueDem

        Is something I would support that goes beyond gun control.  

        In the area of background checks for gun buyers, my idea would be to build a database that can be used to produce a whitelist of people who are permitted to buy guns, rather than cobbling together from different sources a list of people who are not permitted to buy guns.  And my first instinct is to think about how this database can be used for other purposes.  In practice, I think this means putting together a database that lists every citizen and legal resident of this nation, so you can see where this might go.

      •  Nothing so draconian (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wood Dragon

        Two examples:

        I have a concealed carry permit, which required a background check including mental health records.  I am able to skip the point of sale background checks being sought.

        I legally bought a firearm from another individual in a private sale.  We drafted a dated bill of sale documenting who we were, carry permit numbers, description, serial number, and price.  We both have copies.

        This state also issues permits to purchase, but not carry, firearms.  The cost is $5 and the sheriff's office performs the background check.

        •  ok, so you would carry your bill of sale... (3+ / 0-)

          ...along with your gun. If asked, you'd present it. What happens if you don't have your bill of sale on ya?

          How does anyone looking at it know that the bill of sale is valid and the info is correct?

          How did ya know that the private gun seller is legit, or that the gun isn't stolen, that particular gun that you just purchased at the private sale?

          Cheers.

          •  I don't carry a bill of sale. I do carry my CHP (0+ / 0-)

            (Concealed Handgun Permit) as it is called in my state.  It is legally required whenever I have a concealed handgun on or about my person and I am not at home.

            I knew the seller was legit because he too had a valid CHP.

            Your point about knowing that the gun didn't have a stolen history is a very valid question that highlights a real part of the problem.  The records database to verify that a gun has not been stolen is NOT available to the public, only to LE.

      •  Being able to present proof that you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        purchased your firearm legally and went through a background check is not the same thing as being required to do so.

        Obviously, lots of firearms would, for the next several decades, have been purchased prior to such procedures.

        But it does give you another level of self protection.

        income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

        by JesseCW on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:04:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Look at antiques and valuables (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BachFan, LilithGardener

        Provenance is important and people are happy to provide it. I don't think that is a bad idea, like keeping a receipt for a warrenty.

        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

        by high uintas on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:29:24 AM PST

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    •  Sooo... (7+ / 0-)

      Without any documentation of where the undocumented gun in the hands of a unlicensed convicted felon came from, how would this alternative approach prevent straw purchases of handguns, which is the single biggest problem in our cities?

      "Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
      I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
      ~John F. Kennedy~

      -7.5,-5.8

      by Oldestsonofasailor on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:29:26 AM PST

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      •  The same way that the proposed laws will (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Oldestsonofasailor, high uintas

        In other words, it can't.  No law is going to stop that kind of transaction.  Only after the fact enforcement.

        What we can do is use the carrot, rather than the stick, approach to encourage above board behavior.  

        •  Right, so it will be another ineffective... (5+ / 0-)

          Gun Control Law...

          The only effective measure would include documentation of every transfer of ownership from manufacture to scrap, and background check documentation with every transfer of ownership...

          With the only absolution for a transfer without being documented being a reported theft...

          And no, this documentation doesn't mean they are coming to get my guns! Unless there is a reason why the gun owner should not legally own firearms...

          "Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
          I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
          ~John F. Kennedy~

          -7.5,-5.8

          by Oldestsonofasailor on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:07:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  A version of this I could support would be that (0+ / 0-)

      the seller also has to complete a 4473 and pass a current NICS check. It would make it harder for someone who is not allowed to possess a gun in the first instance to transfer it to someone who can.

      Not that I'm proposing this as a policy idea - it would be dead on arrival as a new imposition upon lawful gun owners.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 02:22:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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