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View Diary: Droning Americans on US Soil: Why Holder's "No" is Not Reassuring (156 comments)

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  •  What Is Wrong With Drones (0+ / 0-)

    That is the future.  I can see thousands of drones in the US catching the bad guys.  In fact I am sure we used drones already for catching speeders.   I also support the drone program in killing terrorist.  I think this is the new wave of the future.  I believe that countries all over the world will use drones to protect their borders and to catch the bad guys.  I don't see anyone using drones against another country unless that country is not out catching the bad guys.  Pakistan is using drones, and so will many other countries.  As long as there are terrorist and countries harboring terrorist there will be a need for drones.  The US does not harbor terrorist and we don't intend to.

    "Don't Let Them Catch You With Your Eyes Closed"

    by rssrai on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:27:52 AM PST

    •  You sure love to say "bad guys" a lot nt (14+ / 0-)

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:31:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  anyone can buy a drone now if that person (0+ / 0-)

      has $400-700.

      obviously, radack doesn't watch the national news or she'd already know this (re: alitalia flight encountered private drone at 1500 ft above la guardia this week).

      frankly, with the easy accessibility of drones to ANYFRIGGIN"ONE, i would like the police to have the ability to monitor who has them and what is being done with them.

      as the report made clear on the alitalia incident, at 200 mph, had the drone been sucked into the engine or hit the plane, it could have brought it down.

      but ......

      DRONNNNNNNEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!

      jeesh!  some people life in different realities than the rest of us.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:35:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gooderservice, JaceInVA, snoopydawg
        i would like the police to have the ability to monitor who has them and what is being done with them.
        I can buy and build a drone for a few hundred bucks to do whatever I want.. and you want the police to track and monitor that?

        Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

        by Wisper on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:39:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  didn't you see second gen's post about seeing his (0+ / 0-)

          neighborhood being posted on facebook - the photo, he said, appeared to be taken from an area behind his bedroom window.

          i object to ANYONE having the ability to "spy" on others without their knowledge - and, yes, that includes the government.

          look at the issue of domestic violence/stalking - look at the peeping tom/turned rapist - look at the home invasion team - look at all the potential for citizen on citizen crime - if the police do not have the same ability to observe, then they are at a disadvantage.  we already have robotic devices to check for bombs.  we already have the ability to use tiny cameras - how is this different?

          i prefer knowing what is out there - register the purchase - if it is for "play" - what is the harm.  if someone buys one and violates the 400 ft limit on flying alititude and and plans to bring down a jet, wouln't YOU want some type of preventative action there?

          i remember the OUTRAGE here on this site when a man in one of the outer boroughs of ny was arrested for planning to fly explosives into a building via radio controlled plane.  guess what, THAT is a DRONE!

          i'm outta here - i really have a head ache (carry over from food poisoning) and radack's diaries always make me want to throw up - so i'm being double whammied here.

          good nite - carry on without me.

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:46:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  while they don't track/monitor that (4+ / 0-)

          (and I don't really think they can, and I wouldn't want to give them the mandate)

          there are laws about operating hobby aircraft near airports.

      •  Frankly, I see a bigger problem here (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BvueDem, edrie, CIndyCasella
        as the report made clear on the alitalia incident, at 200 mph, had the drone been sucked into the engine or hit the plane, it could have brought it down.
        than simply targeted domestic assassinations: planes being "brought down."

        Plaintiffs' Employment Law Attorney (harassment, discrimination, retaliation, whistleblowing, wage & hour, &c.) in North Orange County, CA.

        "I love this goddamn country, and we're going to take it back."
        -- Saul Alinsky

        by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:34:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Is it kind? Is it necessary? (3+ / 0-)

        Is it kind to bomb poor unarmed people because they are brown-skinned and live in a foreign country?  Is the bombing of poor, uneducated, brown-skinned people necessary?

        If you watch the national news, you would know the the government's use of droens to bomb and kill poor borwn-skinned people is highly secret, and the government is not going to allow the police to monitor these drones and what is being done with them.

        "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

        by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:58:47 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ooooh, bad guys, scary! (9+ / 0-)

      Must kill them. Must kill ALL of them! Because they're BAD!

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 07:48:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I, the wise one, know who the bad guys are (9+ / 0-)

        no need for Haber corpus which has been around for hundreds of years

        no need for the rule of law

        I am the KING and I can do what I want to anyone

      •  The only good bad guy is a dead bad guy. (7+ / 0-)

        Something like that.

        What's truly scary is the ascendency of the terrified right even on "liberal" DKos.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:29:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If we kill them, it means they were bad (6+ / 0-)

          Anyway, even if we made a mistake, so long as me and my family are safe and my XBox is working, I'm fine with that. You can't be right 100% of the time.

          Bin Laden's dead! Go USA! Woohoo!

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:33:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and... if we kill them when they're little... (5+ / 0-)

            they can't grow up to be bad.

            and...

            it uses less ordnance to blow up a kid, so it's cost effective too!

            Win-win!

            This round of kill the scary terrorists brought to you by Team D, proudly keeping America Safe since 2009!

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:43:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't see any serious push (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilJD, BvueDem

              for killing children before they grow up to be terrorists, at least on our side. Give them some credit. But I also don't see the sort of outrage you'd expect when it does happen, even as "collateral damage". Mainly, I see people in denial who put their love of Team Blue and desire to not die or think too hard about difficult things above their still existing but supressed decency.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:46:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  if they all had responsible fathers I guess it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilJD, corvo

              wouldn't have happened, according to the thinking of Robert Gibbs.
              According to the article someone close to him said Gibbs didn't know at the time the 16 yearl old boy was not killed at the same time as his father, but that news doesn't seem to change his views very much.

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

              WASHINGTON -- A 16-year-old American boy killed in an Obama administration drone strike "should have [had] a far more responsible father," Obama campaign senior adviser Robert Gibbs says in a new video released by the group We Are Change.
              "I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well being of their children. I don't think becoming an al Qaeda jihadist terrorist is the best way to go about doing your business," Gibbs, the former White House press secretary, told the interviewer from We Are Change, when asked to justify "an American citizen that is being targeted without due process, without trial -- and, he's underage, he's a minor."

              Gibbs had initially attempted to wave off a question about the boy. "I'm not going to get into Anwar al-Awlaki's son. I know that Anwar al-Awlaki renounced his citizenship, did great harm to people in this country." Anwar Al-Awlaki, born and educated in the U.S., was a senior al Qaeda recruiter and propagandist, American authorities have said.
              And this....
              >But the reporter pressed him, noting that the teen had not renounced his citizenship and was underage. The Atlantic suggests that if Gibbs is giving the genuine rationale for the killing, it's grounds for impeachment.

              "Again, note that this kid wasn't killed in the same drone strike as his father," writes The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf. "He was hit by a drone strike elsewhere, and by the time he was killed, his father had already been dead for two weeks. Gibbs nevertheless defends the strike, not by arguing that the kid was a threat, or that killing him was an accident, but by saying that his late father irresponsibly joined al Qaeda terrorists. Killing an American citizen without due process on that logic ought to be grounds for impeachment."

              Friedersdorf also notes the distinction that al-Awlaki's son was not killed as a consequence of the strike against the father, but was hit separately. Esquire's Tom Junod covered the son's killing:

              (emphasis mine)

              without the ants the rainforest dies

              by aliasalias on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 02:47:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  don't drone me, bro (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kovie, 420 forever, Brown Thrasher

            It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

            by Murphoney on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:46:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Or, at least, a dead *suspected* bad guy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PhilJD

          then we'll KNOW all the bad guys are dead bad guys, and we won't have to worry about being blamed for letting any bad guys survive, because since we kill even all the might-be bad guys, the bad-guy bad guys will have to be especially dead.

          and think of all the free time for those judges.

          It seems curiosity has killed the cat that had my tongue.

          by Murphoney on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:45:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I agree it is the future, and I'm not reassured (4+ / 0-)

      I agree that using drones is the future, both for peaceful purposes (traffic reports, weather-chasing), and (cough) law enforcement (use of force against peaceful gatherings, etc).

      Interestingly, the definition of a bad guy depends on your point of view.  Our founding fathers were terrorists to colonial brits, and our beloved soldiers were occupying storm troopers to the Iraqis.  

      What side of that defintion you fall on could very well depend on who is operating that drone.  And should you ever be targeted, your death will be celebrated as another victory against bad guys and terrorists.  That should give you a measure of satisfaction.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:10:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think most people don't understand the (4+ / 0-)

      larger implications of the unwritten laws governing this program, specifically, how they will effect the use of the next generation of military weapons -- fully autonomous military weapons.

      At this moment, we're debating the question: should the president be allowed to grant himself the power to use drones to kill selected targets without due process of law, which is a very important debate because the laws that we establish now will set guidelines for future assassinations, which will be carried out by autonomous drones who will have the capacity to the make decisions about who should be killed.

      Think about what I'm saying: it presents a myriad of ethical and moral questions that are more difficult to answer than most people can imagine. For example, if a drone selects a target to be killed on American soil, but in the process kills innocent American children, who will be held accountable? The president? The military? The drone's controller? The maker? You can't prosecute the drone, so who will be held accountable?

      Who knows. We can't even get a straight answer from this administration about how many innocent people have been killed by American drones.

      rssrai, I truly hope you will rethink your position because it is very myopic. This debate we're having now, has come too late, but even now it is more important than you think; it warrants a much deeper look than just granting blanket approval of such a program without calling for legitimate oversight.

      And if you think this isn't the future of military weapons, then you haven't been paying attention...just take a look at the semi-autonomous weapons that are being employed now (without most people being aware that they exist). South Korea and Israel are using them to patrol DMZ areas. We're using them on battleships...and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

      •  Or what if the drone or the AI guiding the drone (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, praenomen, Brown Thrasher

        decides that the president is a terrorist based on analysis of all the electronic communications in the country?  Remember, one of the goals of the Total Information Awareness system was to have a self aware system capable of detecting and responding to potential terrorist threats much better than humans.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:24:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well then, I hope some drone doesn't decide (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, Brown Thrasher, aliasalias

      that the person passing you on the road is a "velocity terrorist" and launches a hellfire missile.  Or the drone's pattern matching system malfunctions and classifies Obama as a terrorist.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:22:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  do they have 'bad guy ' uniforms or badges? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      without the ants the rainforest dies

      by aliasalias on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 02:29:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Currently, it's whoever the Administration says (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aliasalias, corvo

        Even Democrats can be asses. Look at Rahm Emanuel.

        by Helpless on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 03:30:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yep if they're dead & of military age they are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Helpless

          automatically classified as a 'militant'. I guess the others remain as the Drone operators call them...'bug splat'.

          Why do they hate us ? For our freedoms ? Toaster ovens? Or because we prop up oppressive regimes so we can loot their resources ?

          without the ants the rainforest dies

          by aliasalias on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 04:03:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They hate us for our freedom (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aliasalias

            to turn them into "bugsplat."

            Imagine that.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 10:05:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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