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View Diary: Elderly woman dragged off of Miami Metro Rail (210 comments)

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  •  About to get flamed for this but here goes (10+ / 0-)

    Forcefully removing anyone, especially of that age, really should be for extraordinary circumstances, such as raging intoxication or violence towards other passengers or staff.

    However, if you're asked to stop making noise, you should. Some people here have said "but it's gospel music, how beautiful!" but noise is noise.

    I live in NYC and ride the subway between Brooklyn and Manhattan every day. The one train line I ride, the Q train, is famous for its "SHOWTIME!" performances where young teens blast loud music and break dance in the middle of subway cars. They do flips on the bars and come excruciatingly close to accidentally striking fellow passengers with their swinging feet. Here's a link to a video of the dancing on YouTube.

    When I'm tired and just want to go home, I don't want to listen to blaring music and dancing, or comedians telling jokes, or mariachi bands, or reggae, or anything. I just want to go home in peace. Of course I could move to another train car, possibly losing my seat in the process.

    Or you could be respectful of your fellow passengers and not make noise.

    •  it probably was annoying (15+ / 0-)

      unfortunately, in this world, we have to deal with other people, even sometimes slightly annoying people. If a crying baby was on the train or a kid having a temper tantrum, would it be more acceptable?  Would you feel the same if the security guard was throwing a screaming toddler off the train?

      •  The flame is not going to go right at ya but (6+ / 0-)

        near ya.  Look.  YOU may be young.  You may not.
        this is not about what you want or desire.....I don't want to sit in traffic for 3 hours while some nut decided to slow traffic down in rush hour...But that is life.  This old soul maybe lives her life to sing.  Loud....doubt it.  Cell phone use annoys me......babies crying... all of this is part of a transit ride.  Grabbing up someone because it is annoying is just Bullying.   It is wrong.   You don't touch other peopl period.   I get annoyed about a lot of things but it is not like the elderly woman was hurting anybody.  Her freedom of expression did not end when she got on board that transit.   She may have had dementia and if we have sunk so low as to throw down little old grannies for singing a song then we as a society are doomed.

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:27:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Most people prefer peace and quiet (22+ / 0-)

      or at least as much as they can get while riding public transportation but not to the point where 82 year old women are slammed onto the concrete for not being quiet enough. That's what bothers so many people.  

      •  I understand the concern over her age (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        miss SPED

        but if she was asked to quiet down and didn't then she's being disrespectful to her fellow passengers. It's really that simple.

        This community disavows giving "age passes" to old white cranky racist men, but why do we do the same to sweet old ladies singing on a train?

        •  Please correct me if I'm wrong (16+ / 0-)

          but its sounds like you're implying that this old woman somehow had it coming. She's 82, maybe she doesn't have all of her faculties, there are better ways to handle those situations.

          If it was an old racist white man I would feel the same way even if what he was saying disgusted me.  You don't slam senior citizens onto the concrete for making too much noise on a bus.

          I want to believe as a society that we're better than this, but when I read stories like this one I do wonder.

          •  I'm saying if she was asked to quiet down, and did (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            miss SPED, Tismo70

            not, then what else can be done from the crew's point of view?

            If you're asked to leave a train for being too loud, of course you're not going to voluntarily leave. You're on the train for a reason and you need to reach your final destination.

            Throwing a person on the ground is reprehensible, but I've been on a commuter rail where a passenger's luggage was literally thrown off the train at a stop by crew because she made a scene for missing her stop and caused the train to make an emergency stop.

            They make quiet cars for a reason, and it's for people being too loud.

            •  That's what most of us are saying mattc129 (9+ / 0-)

              That what this guard did was reprehensible, not that the woman or anyone else who makes too much noise should get a pass. Better training for these guards in resolving these matters would be a start.

              I was born and raised in NYC  so I know what it like to be stuck on a train with riders who are making too much noise. Its annoying and it can be stressful as well.

              If it ever got to a point where someone really bothered me, I would move to another car or I'd just crank up the walkman . I'd get off a bus if I had to, but I can't remember ever getting that upset and I had plenty of reasons over the years.

              Better that than watch some old man or woman treated this way. An 82 year old old racist man spouting off or an 82 year old woman singing gospel songs might be suffering from something like alzheimers. Unless they're clearly a threat to others they should handle the situation without getting too physical, and that's clearly what this guard is guilty of.

              I had a relative with alzhiemers who sounded like a drunken tea partier by the time he died. Never talked like that before he got sick so I know that things are not always what they seem.

              •  i wouldn't have had to get away from this lady- (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                i used to take the T when i lived in the boston area, and i used to ride the harlem line into ny regularly before i moved to central CT. now i just do it occasionally. i rarely ride the subway alone- usually just w/ my son.

                anyway, when people would be annoying or awful, it wasn't anything like a little old lady singing. i'd move to get away from drunk people or loud groups of people. people on cell phones used to bug me but i could sit it out.

                i've had to get away from men who thought they were flirting but were just being awful and wouldn't stop. never had to move away from a little old lady.

                i remember about 17 years ago a guy on the train who was a little off. he was loudly telling us all who we were- he made a family out of everyone. you're my mom! you're my uncle! you're my grandpa! noone came to throw him off the train- he was about a million times more annoying than a little old lady singing to herself.  

                honestly, i don't even know if what that lady was doing would have been on my radar as a problem that must be handled.

                i bet that officer was rejected by law enforcement but was able to get a job w/ 50 state security. it would be interesting to see if he ever worked as a bouncer anywhere- he might have been rough on women there too.

                i so hope there's a trial.

                "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

                by thankgodforairamerica on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:18:46 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  IF SHE WAS ASKED... (5+ / 0-)

              There is no indication she was asked, by anyone, to quiet down.
              You have simply assumed she was asked, and believing so, have condoned dragging an 82-year-old woman off a train and throwing her down onto a concrete platform.
              Suppose it was your grandmother, or great-grandmother?
              Compassion doesn't seem to be a strong suit with you.

              (and the 82-year-old white racist analogy doesn't work here, sorry.)

              Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

              by MA Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:05:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's no indication she was not asked, as well (0+ / 0-)

                You can't play it both ways.

                •  Both arguments being equal, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  you still lose. If she was asked, and didn't stop, it still does not give someone carte blanche to drag her off a train and throw her onto a concrete platform.

                  Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

                  by MA Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:24:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  whether or not she was asked, the goober in the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Horace Boothroyd III

                  uniform DRAGGED HER UNTIL SHE FELL! take another look at the pictures, he's got ahold of the handle of her whats-it and she's on the other side of it. is it some sort of walker?

                  he's dragging and yanking on the handle, and finally manages to pull her clear off her feet. Looks like either she thinks he's trying to steal the walker, or she really can't move without it and he's going too fast for her to keep up. so he YANKS, and she falls.

                  I'm amazed she was walking as easily as she was, early in the video!

                  "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

                  by chimene on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:52:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You too if fortunate will be old (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blue91, MRA NY, a2nite

                  and defensless.   It won't feel the same as you are saying on here now.  People treat you differently when you move too slow, sing or talk too loud, or don't understand......I hope your patience grows by then.

                  We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                  by Vetwife on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:53:40 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  What accounts are you reading? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Every one I've seen states that when she was asked to stop, she refused and continued singing, keeping rhythm by banging on her thigh. And judging from the video interviews with her, she has her faculties.

                So, who gets a pass, and who doesn't?
                Religious fanatic loudly quoting scripture?
                Drum circle?
                Hare Krishnas?
                Westboro BC?

                "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

                by Tismo70 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 03:53:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  No we are not better than this nt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
        •  How many people on (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          public transportation, or in public establishments like restaurants and theaters have you personally told to quiet down while loudly talking about their medical issues, love life and/or lousy job on cell phones?

          If so, how many of them ended their calls, and how many said "fuck you" and kept right on talking? Did you call police/security to have them tossed onto the street for violating your precious quiet-time? How many times did police/security acquiesce to your wishes, and how many times did they shrug and tell you to get over it?

          •  I don't care about content, I care about volume (0+ / 0-)

            Talk about whatever you're comfortable talking about in public. But do so at a volume that is respectful to those around you. That's the heart of the matter here.

            •  And what, precisely, is the decibel (0+ / 0-)

              level you apply? Is it the same decibel level as everyone else finds unbearable? The same decibel level the transportation authority recognizes as 'too' loud? Or is it more in line with your frustrated expression of desire for peace and quiet from the people you share public space with? Have you considered earphones? Carpooling with someone as desirous of peace and quiet as you are? Riding a bike? Taking a taxi? Have you ever considered getting off a noisy bus/train early and hoofing it for a few blocks?

              Just considering the fact that people vary quite a bit in their tolerance levels for whatever other people are doing in public places. And some people simply don't care what the 'norms' are and will insist on being themselves - sometimes loudly - anyway. Then there's traffic noise, horns honking, bells ringing, people yelling, high-pitched taxi whistles, itinerant street-preachers, regular old crazy people yelling at the top of their lungs at someone who isn't there. Jackhammers hammering away, deafening car sound systems and assorted boom boxes, construction and deconstruction noises... cities are loud places. Always have been. Nobody's got a 'right' to peace and quiet in a city outside their own homes (many of which aren't exactly soundproof) or the library.

              And a professional would have been capable of 'escorting' this woman either to a less populated car or off the train without pulling her face-first onto the concrete. No matter how old she is, but ESPECIALLY if she's a fragile elderly woman. Hell, he could have picked her up bodily and placed her off the train without suffering - or causing - any injuries at all. Truth here is that she could easily have broken arms, a leg or two, or her hip, hit her head and died on the spot.

              Yet here you are defending her treatment because you personally so highly value your peace and quiet. I find that sort of... bizarre. But then again, I so highly value my peace and quiet that my choice of where to live and work doesn't include a noisy city chock full of people who aren't me.

              •  I fully admit and acknowledge my acceptable (0+ / 0-)

                decibel level is on the low end of the spectrum. And yes, some people will just be their loud selves without regard to others or at least context, and I think those people are annoying.

                I don't mind the ambient noise of city life; I signed up for that when I chose to live in one. But context is everything, as is what is causing the noise. So yes, I'm more cranky than most about people-created noise because I like to commute to work in relative quiet. As I've stated above, the NYC subway doesn't have a quiet car, but if it did I would be in it.

                When I go to a baseball game, I cheer when I approve of the action. But it's contextually ok to be loud and cheer at a sporting event.

                When I'm going to and from work on the subway, I know others would disapprove of me clapping to the beat of music, or talking as loud as at a sporting event, or singing, or anything that's out of the ordinarily acceptable inside voice realm. So I'm self-aware enough not to do it.

                Call me selfish, a jerk, naive, whatever, but I have low tolerance for people who aren't self-aware. It's among my favorite qualities in my friends.

                Should she have been removed with such level of force? No, other options should have been taken first.

                But if those options fail, which we don't know in this particular case, but if they fail, then transit staff are well within their rights to remove the person or persons from the venue. Ushers do it in theatres, etc.

                •  Did you watch the video? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blue91, joanbrooker

                  We're talking less than 30 seconds for the face-to-face confrontation about how loud her singing was. The woman responded to the thug as if insulted. We don't get all of what he's saying or his facial expression. I have worked (and played) with lots of people of all varieties over the years. There were other ways of accomplishing the goal. None of them were tried.

                  My mother died at 72. She fell one night from the edge of the bed while putting on her pajamas. Broke her femur (twist fracture), hip, 4 vertebrae and both of her wrists. She died a couple of months later because while her mind was sharp as ever, her body was done. I am horrified that this thug pulled an 82 year old woman from the elevated car onto the concrete. The cheapest and most elementary 1-week course in public relations would have prevented it. This 'security' company is flying a red flag that reads: WTF?

                  ...and I don't think it hurts those who were so 'bothered' by her gospel song to understand that their intolerance can result in something as horrific as this. I wonder how many of the people in that car didn't get much "peace and quiet" in their own minds the rest of the day (or week, or forever) because they witnessed this travesty. My mother taught me much more about respect than that. It goes both ways.

                •  P.S. (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't think "self-aware" means what you think it means.

                  •  Not trying to fight, what do you think it means? (0+ / 0-)

                    When I speak of self-awareness, I mean having the ability to recognize your own actions and how they affect those around you. A sub-definition would also be using intuition to predict actions you might want to take in order to keep the flow of things running smoothly.

                    Since we've been talking about transit, here's an example. I'm on a packed subway car and standing near a set of doors. The train arrives at the station and people want to get off. Rather than just stand there and block the door, I will get off, let others get off, and then get back on myself.

                    Now some people might simply call that common courtesy, but I consider it being self-aware enough that I might be in the way if I don't move.

                    And I get frustrated will people who don't take the same approach. Maybe that attitude is selfish, but I consider it a lack of self-awareness.

                    •  Self-awareness has to do with (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      joanbrooker, a2nite

                      knowing yourself and your own mind, and aligning your own behaviors to your own standards. It is not the practice of judging others by your personal standards.

                      Don't get me wrong... being invisible is no doubt a useful skill in the city. But I don't think that expecting a city full of diverse people to be invisible too is reasonable. Or even desirable. If I lived in a city and found myself cheering outrageous and violent treatment of an elderly person because her gospel song disturbs my unreasonable expectations, I'd probably be self-aware enough to recognize it's time I made arrangements to live somewhere more... invisible.

        •  So you believe the disrespect shown by (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chimene, YucatanMan, MRA NY

          physically grabbing a woman and throwing her off the train is more acceptable than the disrespect shown by not stopping singing when asked?

          I mean, get a grip and get some perspective, man.  Life entails and will always entail having some annoyances around you when you're out in public around hundreds of other humans.  We're all capable of dealing with it.  Life should not, however, have to entail being manhandled because we happen to be annoying someone else.  Even if we've been asked to stop.

          We don't complain about cranky old white men until they start trying to take our rights away from us.  That's slightly more critical than having to listen to a sound we find unpleasant for a few minutes.

          I don't know.  I just can't grasp your mindset.  It's so totally bizzarre that someone could actually think that being irritated by some annoying sound - whatever that sound was - justifies physical violence.  And then that you can come up with these totally inapposite comparisons to justify your unjustified reasoning.  Just wierd.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:56:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I grew up in a house where a non-blood resident (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thankgodforairamerica, MRA NY

            , for lack of describing the entirety of the situation, used to get verbally abusive at excess human-created noise. That might entail me, as a young adult with a social life, maybe coming home at 1am and not turning door knobs ever so softly to his liking. Yes, it was that crazy.

            So perhaps I'm among the few that are hyper-sensitive to excess noise, but it's only as a result of abuse I suffered for sometimes being too loud in his wildly twisted views.

            •  I'm hyper-sensitive to noise of any kind, not (0+ / 0-)

              just excessive noise.  My poor husband doesn't get to have the radio on in the car, gets to have the teevee on a limited amount of time, I hate music.  Just hate sounds, period.  But I would still NEVER consider it my right to have others be silenced in order to be able to feel the sense of calm and control I can feel only in silence.  I avoid crowds whenever possible.  But when I can't, I get to deal with the noise that exists.  I don't get to quiet everyone else because it stresses and annoys me.  It's up to me to avoid noisy situations, not for others to avoid being noisy.

              Please forgive me for not accepting your "poor me, I had such a rough childhood so now I have an excuse to be an asshold as an adult" excuse.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:18:43 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  HRd for comment about my childhood (0+ / 0-)

                you don't know me or what i went through so fuck off

                •  Because I've decided that you have some (0+ / 0-)

                  real serious issues, and I have to admit getting an unmerited HR poses virtually no concern to me, I'm not going to report you for your Very inappropriate HR.  It's inappropriate for two reasons:  1.  The rules very expressly prohibit giving HR's when you're one of the parties in a "discussion" or disagreement; and 2. Your excuse for giving one is not one of the accepted reasons for giving HRs.

                  So consider this your lucky day.  Giving inappropriate HRs such as this can actually get you banned, so you might want to consider controlling yourself a little better.

                  "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                  by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:31:34 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i took off the HR (0+ / 0-)

                    but it still doesn't excuse your baseless comments about my experiences at home. i don't have any "real serious issues" unless you consider the opinion that people should be mindful of their personal volume a serious issue.

                    •  Listen, it's not that I consider your opinion (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      burlydee, MRA NY, a2nite

                      that others should be mindful of their volume a problem.  What I've considered a problem is that you appear to have put your desire that others be mindful as being of greater importance than the roughing up of an 82 year old woman, to the point that you've posted comment after comment about it, without having yet grasped how truly inappropriate such a position is or how self centered your attitude is.  

                      I get that when you're out and about, you HATE all the noise.  It stresses you.  You focus hard on being the perfect person and you just don't understand why everyone else can't work equally hard at it.  You'd just like the world to be a nice quiet oasis, and you have your ideas of where especially those oasis should be.  

                      I saw your comments as being quite callous towards the woman who was manhandled and I let my emotions about that get the better of me.  I do think the fact that you don't seem to be able to identify with the woman at all indicates you do indeed have some issues, and I suspect that means you need some degree of kindness rather than censure.  Therefore, I apologize for irritation and unkind words and will simply hope that you reach the point where you can understand that some peoples' desire for quiet can not take precedence over an old woman's need for some dignity and understanding, even if she happens to be annoying others.

                      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                      by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:59:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Excuse me (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    You inferred that the poster's childhood experiences made him an "asshold" as an adult. Any HR you get is definitely warranted for a personal attack; and though I haven't posted here lately, I'm going to start anew, and as soon as I've crossed the comment threshold to get my TU status back, I'm coming back here mete one out for your violation of site rules.

                    "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

                    by Tismo70 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 04:04:11 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  She wasn't (13+ / 0-)

      doing anything louder than annoying people talking to their earphones, people having loud conversations, noise from cell phones rings or video games... It's public transportation not the ballet or a wake. People are people, they are noisy and full of life.

      The video was awesome. that's an entertaining commute. As you say you can move to another car or put on your earbuds and have some rainforest sounds or anything else that is better than having a pseudopoliceman throwing a 82 yeo woman of the train like she was a hobo from the 30s or even bordering her.

      •  Rush hour commutes are different than off peak (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I'm ok with noise on an off peak train, but on a rush hour train to or from work, I want quiet. There's no concept of a quiet car on the subway, but if I still lived at home in the suburbs I would absolutely be in that car every day.

        You want to know what's not awesome in that dance video? When they commandeer the train aisle and come within inches of kicking your face during their fucking dance moves. It's disrespectful and disruptive to the other passengers. Do you live here and encounter them on an almost daily basis like I do?

        No one says anything because it's a NY thing, but you should see the looks on most people's faces. They're furious.

        •  They don't seem furious to me (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aitchdee, gustynpip

          I don;t live now but I've lived in places using the public transportation a lot. Yes, they may be annoying but annoyance is part of living around other people particularly in densely populated places like NYC. Even in NYC I don't think in every commute you get this guys on your face.  What about others peoples odors, talking loud, eating (I personally hate being beside someone eating in a vehicle of any kind), clothing and so on. Is any of that something that needs to be addressed by a goon throwing really old people of a train?

          •  What part of dancers almost kick passengers (0+ / 0-)

            do you not understand? That particular video doesn't show it, but when these guys come onto the train car they commandeer it and clear the aisles. Anyone who was standing in the middle now has to shuffle to one end of the train car to make space for their little dance act.

            I guarantee you people don't want to move but they'll take moving out of the way versus a kick to the face.

            It's annoying and disruptive. I shouldn't have to worry about getting kicked by a break dancer on my way home from work. Why you can't understand that is beyond me.

            •  I do understand it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              aitchdee, gustynpip

              I had several times a guy playing horrible accordion music directly by my ear and smelling like bags of fermented polyps. I had a drunken old woman sitting beside me falling asleep on top of me several times. Guys reading what I' reading. People behaving uncivilly in general.They are fucking annoying but the solution is not wannabe cops treating people like that guy did in the video.

        •  You want peace and quiet (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          YucatanMan, MRA NY

          from the public on public transportation. I'll bet that 82-year old wanted some good ol' gospel songs. Why is your desire more absolute than hers? And I say 'desire' instead of 'right' because you have no right not to be bothered by the public when you are in public.

          •  Because there are inside and outside voices. (0+ / 0-)

            I was raised that way, and I'd like to think today's parents are raising their children the same way.

            I was raised to be exceptionally mindful of my volume when in public. That, combined with the fact that I am among the most self-aware people I know, I take great care to not be a disturbance to my fellow humans when in public. Whether it's public transit, at a restaurant, movie theatre, etc.

            Transit is not the right venue for singing. Many people here disagree with me, but we'll just have to disagree.

            •  Sounds like you are trying to impose your (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joieau, burlydee, MRA NY

              personal values and preferences on other people.

              Are you normally a control-freak in daily life?  I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just asking.

              If you think the NYC subways are loud or crazy, well, you have the choice to seek out other transportation. It is very doubtful that your one opinion is going to change all the people who ride on the trains.

              A friend of mine who lived in Queens biked into Manhattan every day, rain, sun or snow.  He said he liked it. I thought he was nuts.

              If you think the NYC subways are loud, you should try the Mexico City subways.  Some cars -- 3rd from the back, last car, first car, etc -- on some lines are known for being a little or a lot wild.   Passengers get on other cars if they just want the daily crush of people and general noise.  

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 01:06:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  There are all sorts of people (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MRA NY

              in the world, and for as long as we're here we have to share the planet whether we like it or not. That's just reality. We do have some choices in life, however.

              I am having a little trouble understanding why anyone - anywhere - would attempt to defend the outrageous and decidedly dangerous treatment this woman received for the not awful 'sin' of singing a gospel song while on public transportation. Even if she couldn't carry a tune in a bucket I could have tolerated it - maybe appreciate it for the expression that it was - for the duration of my ride. Without the violent offense visited upon her by an obvious thug. Heck, if her singing voice was truly intolerable, I probably would have moved to sit next to her and invite her nicely to tell me what's on her mind - I love that song, what made you decide to sing it, what's your story... And I probably would have enjoyed the conversation immensely, too.

              I understand your intolerance, I just don't see how you could believe your intolerance must outweigh the simple presence of any irritating 'other' in a public space. Perhaps you are living and working in the wrong environment (for your nature). There are some options, you know.

            •  I agree singing on a public vehicle is just rude. (0+ / 0-)

              And for me religious music evokes PTSD so I would have had to leave the vehicle.

              But she was not deserving of the treatment she received.

              "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 03:18:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You don't always get what you want in life. (0+ / 0-)

          Who the hell are you to decide that your desire for quiet is more important than her desire to sing?  You want to be out amongst others, you deal with the petty annoyances of others getting to do what they want, without taking your desires as the deciding factor.

          While I'm not proud of it, I've taken an intense dislike to you based on your posts in this diary.  I don't know that I've read posts exhibiting such a callous self centeredness in a very long time.  

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:01:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Think what you want, doesn't matter to me (0+ / 0-)

            In regards to desires for quiet over desires to sing, I was raised to be very mindful of my volume in public. I go out of my way to make sure I'm not a disturbance to my fellow humans, whether it's on transit, at a movie theatre, wherever. It's basic respect.

            There are venues for singing in public, and transit is not one of them. You can call that selfish all day long, but it doesn't change the tradition that we are supposed to be mindful and self-aware enough to not disturb our fellow humans in certain circumstances, and transit is among the top circumstances in my book.

            •  Well, good for you. But the rest of the world is (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Vetwife, YucatanMan, burlydee, MRA NY, a2nite

              not obligated to comport to your standards.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:20:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Isn't this just what you are complaining about (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              regarding the noise makers:

              Think what you want, doesn't matter to me
              I thought that attitude from the noisy kids on the Showtime train bothered you, but you express it as well.

              So, it is doubtful progress will be made.

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 01:07:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  If any of the other passengers complained (6+ / 0-)

      then she should respond in some way to their request to tone it down.  However, if the guard was the only one enforcing any noise or disturbance compliance issue then there is lack of evidence that she was in fact too loud.  I generally agree that passengers should be respectful of each other's comfort.  You're essentially all trapped with one another for some period of time.  Scores of years here in NYC make me especially sensitive to this issue.  There is a middle ground.  But I have no doubt the security guy was an ass.

    •  I watched the video and was interested in the shot (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattc129, one of 8

      of the young black man in the suit sitting there with a look on his face that conveyed the thought that he just wished that the characters dancing and annoying people would just go away.  

      And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

      by MrJersey on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:46:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  true (3+ / 0-)

      I agree that she should have stopped -- noise is noise, and it's annoying, and that many people here thinking it would be nice to hear an old woman singing probably don't take transit regularly.   But I'm also willing to bet that enforcement is so selective that it's much more of a problem than the noise.  

      Screaming babies or shouting toddlers are about the only ones I don't mind, because they can't handle it.  And adults who are unable to realize they are making inappropriate noises (by which I mean truly unable, not yuppies with cell phones and overinflated egos), although I've seen enough of the latter get aggressive that I will avoid them when possible.  

      •  Right, infrequent transit riders don't get it (0+ / 0-)

        It's completely different with street performers or even subway performers in stations instead of on trains. But on the actual train, it's annoying. I'm culturally pressured to accept noise from children, but even in some of those cases the parents could do a better job to stop disturbances. Crying is one thing, but running around the train car swinging on the handrails is another.

    •  Having seen this earlier (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mattc129, falconer520

      and not privy to the arguments contained in this thread, my immediate reaction was similar to yours. I don't want to defend the heavy-handed approach of the metro guard, but if she had just let go of the luggage, she wouldn't have wound up on the ground. And the officer looked mortified in the immediate aftermath; he clearly didn't intend for her to wind up on the ground, just off the train...which is the standard response for anyone creating an unnecessary annoyance in violation of the rules on rail transportation.

      "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

      by Tismo70 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:20:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This seems to be a cultural issue (7+ / 0-)

      Some folks, particularly of a poorer, older generation, love to sing out loud, no matter where they go. But middle class (predominantly white) people have decided that that is rude and have used their cultural power to shut these people up. This is occurring in the gentrification currently going on in NYC. I see this happen all over the place. And when an old woman gets treated like this woman did, I typically see someone like you go ,"Yeah, but..."

      There is little similarity between performers on a subway and an old woman sitting by herself singing out loud. She wasn't swinging her legs and arms wildly about, forcing people to move. She was just singing. But apparently, you are more concerned with the idea that your culture should supersede hers, and therefore you sympathize more with the security officer than the old woman who got injured. That alarms me.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:38:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, pull the race card right away (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        miss SPED

        My concerns have nothing to do with the fact that she is an older black woman singing songs of her culture. In fact, it has nothing whatsoever to do with culture, "competing" or otherwise.

        It has everything to do with the fact that there are outside voices and inside voices for a reason. If she was dining alone at a restaurant and started singing for her own enjoyment, do you think the other restaurant patrons would accept that disruption? Even if she wasn't moving her limbs and dancing, as you claim would make a difference, singing in certain venues is not appropriate, and I think that public transit is one of those venues.

        Quite honestly, it's very frustrating to be accused of applying my so-called culture over her culture. It's not putting her down because she's old, or black, or whatever; it's not having self-awareness to not make loud noise in a public setting that doesn't call for it. This isn't a sporting event, it's transit.

        •  It has everything to do with the fact that (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chimene, moviemeister76, a2nite

          you think the world at large should conform to your tastes and your desires.t

          In many cultures, her singing would not just have been acceptable, but desirable.  In fact, it would have been joined in by others.  Whether in a transit system or at a restaurant.   You are, indeed, applying your culture and the fact that you believe your culture is the only way even imaginable to you tells me you should really get out in the world a bit more.  What a narrow, boring little life y0u seem to live - and need.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:08:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  LMAO (0+ / 0-)

          It actually has little to do with color, and more to do with class. My poor paternal grandmother was all about singing out loud in public, my middle class white maternal grandmother was definitely not.

          However, I do find it sad that you don't even realize that your whole "outside voice" thing is actually a cultural value, and you are trying to force your cultural values on others.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:05:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Um...really? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thankgodforairamerica, mattc129

        I recently had to ride the Washington Metro in the middle of the day when a bunch of high school kids from a local Catholic school got on....oh, the DIN of YELLING AND SCREAMING!  

        I actually had to change cars.  I couldn't take it.

        •  oh my gosh! the bus passes! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chimene, isabelle hayes, MRA NY

          when we lived in the boston area, again about 17 years ago, the transit bus driver would let the kids on w/ their bus passes, and not start driving until he had the conversation w/ them about how they were going to behave. he did it everytime. i loved that guy.

          "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

          by thankgodforairamerica on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:19:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  But no one asked her to stop. (4+ / 0-)

      The guard went to her and told her she would have to get off the warning, nothing.
      Ms. Anderson looks like the type who would probably have softened her tone, or stopped singing, if asked to.
      Instead, the guard comes up to her, tells her she has to go and, when she says no, he drags her away like a sack of spuds.
      I've lived in NYC and ridden transit in NYC and Boston. I like peace and quiet as well. But I would never condone dragging an 82-year-old off a train for singing Gospel music. I might take it upon myself to ask her to lower her voice, or to stop. That's what a normal person would do. No one did that here.
      Your comment is not worthy of flaming, just a re-think.

      Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

      by MA Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:01:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No flames from me. (0+ / 0-)

      They were very forceful with her.  Instead of asking her nicely, they simply told her to stop.  She couldn't even converse with them before they gave her the heave-ho.

    •  The proper response to someone who is making (4+ / 0-)

      excessive noise on a train is to be ticketed for making excessive noise.

      The proper response is not to grab a hold of a person, drag them off or throw them to the ground.  

      It is that simple. Period.

      If I make excessive noise in my front yard, the police can come give me a ticket.  They cannot body slam me, punch me or lay a hand on me in any way if I am sitting in a chair in my front yard and not physically confronting them.

      Force is not permitted to make some one comply.  Force is only permitted when someone attacks an officer or is needed to subdue a suspect who refuses to submit to being arrested, handcuffed, etc.

      It doesn't matter if you are tired or not.  The proper response is to give the little old lady a ticket.  And, I'd argue, that should be done only after she's been given three clear warnings.

      A train is not a prison camp.

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 01:00:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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