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View Diary: Elderly woman dragged off of Miami Metro Rail (210 comments)

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  •  Most people prefer peace and quiet (22+ / 0-)

    or at least as much as they can get while riding public transportation but not to the point where 82 year old women are slammed onto the concrete for not being quiet enough. That's what bothers so many people.  

    •  I understand the concern over her age (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      miss SPED

      but if she was asked to quiet down and didn't then she's being disrespectful to her fellow passengers. It's really that simple.

      This community disavows giving "age passes" to old white cranky racist men, but why do we do the same to sweet old ladies singing on a train?

      •  Please correct me if I'm wrong (16+ / 0-)

        but its sounds like you're implying that this old woman somehow had it coming. She's 82, maybe she doesn't have all of her faculties, there are better ways to handle those situations.

        If it was an old racist white man I would feel the same way even if what he was saying disgusted me.  You don't slam senior citizens onto the concrete for making too much noise on a bus.

        I want to believe as a society that we're better than this, but when I read stories like this one I do wonder.

        •  I'm saying if she was asked to quiet down, and did (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          miss SPED, Tismo70

          not, then what else can be done from the crew's point of view?

          If you're asked to leave a train for being too loud, of course you're not going to voluntarily leave. You're on the train for a reason and you need to reach your final destination.

          Throwing a person on the ground is reprehensible, but I've been on a commuter rail where a passenger's luggage was literally thrown off the train at a stop by crew because she made a scene for missing her stop and caused the train to make an emergency stop.

          They make quiet cars for a reason, and it's for people being too loud.

          •  That's what most of us are saying mattc129 (9+ / 0-)

            That what this guard did was reprehensible, not that the woman or anyone else who makes too much noise should get a pass. Better training for these guards in resolving these matters would be a start.

            I was born and raised in NYC  so I know what it like to be stuck on a train with riders who are making too much noise. Its annoying and it can be stressful as well.

            If it ever got to a point where someone really bothered me, I would move to another car or I'd just crank up the walkman . I'd get off a bus if I had to, but I can't remember ever getting that upset and I had plenty of reasons over the years.

            Better that than watch some old man or woman treated this way. An 82 year old old racist man spouting off or an 82 year old woman singing gospel songs might be suffering from something like alzheimers. Unless they're clearly a threat to others they should handle the situation without getting too physical, and that's clearly what this guard is guilty of.

            I had a relative with alzhiemers who sounded like a drunken tea partier by the time he died. Never talked like that before he got sick so I know that things are not always what they seem.

            •  i wouldn't have had to get away from this lady- (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              i used to take the T when i lived in the boston area, and i used to ride the harlem line into ny regularly before i moved to central CT. now i just do it occasionally. i rarely ride the subway alone- usually just w/ my son.

              anyway, when people would be annoying or awful, it wasn't anything like a little old lady singing. i'd move to get away from drunk people or loud groups of people. people on cell phones used to bug me but i could sit it out.

              i've had to get away from men who thought they were flirting but were just being awful and wouldn't stop. never had to move away from a little old lady.

              i remember about 17 years ago a guy on the train who was a little off. he was loudly telling us all who we were- he made a family out of everyone. you're my mom! you're my uncle! you're my grandpa! noone came to throw him off the train- he was about a million times more annoying than a little old lady singing to herself.  

              honestly, i don't even know if what that lady was doing would have been on my radar as a problem that must be handled.

              i bet that officer was rejected by law enforcement but was able to get a job w/ 50 state security. it would be interesting to see if he ever worked as a bouncer anywhere- he might have been rough on women there too.

              i so hope there's a trial.

              "...i also also want a legally binding apology." -George Rockwell

              by thankgodforairamerica on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:18:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  IF SHE WAS ASKED... (5+ / 0-)

            There is no indication she was asked, by anyone, to quiet down.
            You have simply assumed she was asked, and believing so, have condoned dragging an 82-year-old woman off a train and throwing her down onto a concrete platform.
            Suppose it was your grandmother, or great-grandmother?
            Compassion doesn't seem to be a strong suit with you.

            (and the 82-year-old white racist analogy doesn't work here, sorry.)

            Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

            by MA Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:05:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There's no indication she was not asked, as well (0+ / 0-)

              You can't play it both ways.

              •  Both arguments being equal, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                you still lose. If she was asked, and didn't stop, it still does not give someone carte blanche to drag her off a train and throw her onto a concrete platform.

                Isn’t it ironic to think that man might determine his own future by something so seemingly trivial as the choice of an insect spray. ~ Rachel Carson, Silent Spring ~

                by MA Liberal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:24:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  whether or not she was asked, the goober in the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Horace Boothroyd III

                uniform DRAGGED HER UNTIL SHE FELL! take another look at the pictures, he's got ahold of the handle of her whats-it and she's on the other side of it. is it some sort of walker?

                he's dragging and yanking on the handle, and finally manages to pull her clear off her feet. Looks like either she thinks he's trying to steal the walker, or she really can't move without it and he's going too fast for her to keep up. so he YANKS, and she falls.

                I'm amazed she was walking as easily as she was, early in the video!

                "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

                by chimene on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:52:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You too if fortunate will be old (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blue91, MRA NY, a2nite

                and defensless.   It won't feel the same as you are saying on here now.  People treat you differently when you move too slow, sing or talk too loud, or don't understand......I hope your patience grows by then.

                We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                by Vetwife on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:53:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  What accounts are you reading? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Every one I've seen states that when she was asked to stop, she refused and continued singing, keeping rhythm by banging on her thigh. And judging from the video interviews with her, she has her faculties.

              So, who gets a pass, and who doesn't?
              Religious fanatic loudly quoting scripture?
              Drum circle?
              Hare Krishnas?
              Westboro BC?

              "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

              by Tismo70 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 03:53:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No we are not better than this nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
      •  How many people on (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        public transportation, or in public establishments like restaurants and theaters have you personally told to quiet down while loudly talking about their medical issues, love life and/or lousy job on cell phones?

        If so, how many of them ended their calls, and how many said "fuck you" and kept right on talking? Did you call police/security to have them tossed onto the street for violating your precious quiet-time? How many times did police/security acquiesce to your wishes, and how many times did they shrug and tell you to get over it?

        •  I don't care about content, I care about volume (0+ / 0-)

          Talk about whatever you're comfortable talking about in public. But do so at a volume that is respectful to those around you. That's the heart of the matter here.

          •  And what, precisely, is the decibel (0+ / 0-)

            level you apply? Is it the same decibel level as everyone else finds unbearable? The same decibel level the transportation authority recognizes as 'too' loud? Or is it more in line with your frustrated expression of desire for peace and quiet from the people you share public space with? Have you considered earphones? Carpooling with someone as desirous of peace and quiet as you are? Riding a bike? Taking a taxi? Have you ever considered getting off a noisy bus/train early and hoofing it for a few blocks?

            Just considering the fact that people vary quite a bit in their tolerance levels for whatever other people are doing in public places. And some people simply don't care what the 'norms' are and will insist on being themselves - sometimes loudly - anyway. Then there's traffic noise, horns honking, bells ringing, people yelling, high-pitched taxi whistles, itinerant street-preachers, regular old crazy people yelling at the top of their lungs at someone who isn't there. Jackhammers hammering away, deafening car sound systems and assorted boom boxes, construction and deconstruction noises... cities are loud places. Always have been. Nobody's got a 'right' to peace and quiet in a city outside their own homes (many of which aren't exactly soundproof) or the library.

            And a professional would have been capable of 'escorting' this woman either to a less populated car or off the train without pulling her face-first onto the concrete. No matter how old she is, but ESPECIALLY if she's a fragile elderly woman. Hell, he could have picked her up bodily and placed her off the train without suffering - or causing - any injuries at all. Truth here is that she could easily have broken arms, a leg or two, or her hip, hit her head and died on the spot.

            Yet here you are defending her treatment because you personally so highly value your peace and quiet. I find that sort of... bizarre. But then again, I so highly value my peace and quiet that my choice of where to live and work doesn't include a noisy city chock full of people who aren't me.

            •  I fully admit and acknowledge my acceptable (0+ / 0-)

              decibel level is on the low end of the spectrum. And yes, some people will just be their loud selves without regard to others or at least context, and I think those people are annoying.

              I don't mind the ambient noise of city life; I signed up for that when I chose to live in one. But context is everything, as is what is causing the noise. So yes, I'm more cranky than most about people-created noise because I like to commute to work in relative quiet. As I've stated above, the NYC subway doesn't have a quiet car, but if it did I would be in it.

              When I go to a baseball game, I cheer when I approve of the action. But it's contextually ok to be loud and cheer at a sporting event.

              When I'm going to and from work on the subway, I know others would disapprove of me clapping to the beat of music, or talking as loud as at a sporting event, or singing, or anything that's out of the ordinarily acceptable inside voice realm. So I'm self-aware enough not to do it.

              Call me selfish, a jerk, naive, whatever, but I have low tolerance for people who aren't self-aware. It's among my favorite qualities in my friends.

              Should she have been removed with such level of force? No, other options should have been taken first.

              But if those options fail, which we don't know in this particular case, but if they fail, then transit staff are well within their rights to remove the person or persons from the venue. Ushers do it in theatres, etc.

              •  Did you watch the video? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blue91, joanbrooker

                We're talking less than 30 seconds for the face-to-face confrontation about how loud her singing was. The woman responded to the thug as if insulted. We don't get all of what he's saying or his facial expression. I have worked (and played) with lots of people of all varieties over the years. There were other ways of accomplishing the goal. None of them were tried.

                My mother died at 72. She fell one night from the edge of the bed while putting on her pajamas. Broke her femur (twist fracture), hip, 4 vertebrae and both of her wrists. She died a couple of months later because while her mind was sharp as ever, her body was done. I am horrified that this thug pulled an 82 year old woman from the elevated car onto the concrete. The cheapest and most elementary 1-week course in public relations would have prevented it. This 'security' company is flying a red flag that reads: WTF?

                ...and I don't think it hurts those who were so 'bothered' by her gospel song to understand that their intolerance can result in something as horrific as this. I wonder how many of the people in that car didn't get much "peace and quiet" in their own minds the rest of the day (or week, or forever) because they witnessed this travesty. My mother taught me much more about respect than that. It goes both ways.

              •  P.S. (0+ / 0-)

                I don't think "self-aware" means what you think it means.

                •  Not trying to fight, what do you think it means? (0+ / 0-)

                  When I speak of self-awareness, I mean having the ability to recognize your own actions and how they affect those around you. A sub-definition would also be using intuition to predict actions you might want to take in order to keep the flow of things running smoothly.

                  Since we've been talking about transit, here's an example. I'm on a packed subway car and standing near a set of doors. The train arrives at the station and people want to get off. Rather than just stand there and block the door, I will get off, let others get off, and then get back on myself.

                  Now some people might simply call that common courtesy, but I consider it being self-aware enough that I might be in the way if I don't move.

                  And I get frustrated will people who don't take the same approach. Maybe that attitude is selfish, but I consider it a lack of self-awareness.

                  •  Self-awareness has to do with (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joanbrooker, a2nite

                    knowing yourself and your own mind, and aligning your own behaviors to your own standards. It is not the practice of judging others by your personal standards.

                    Don't get me wrong... being invisible is no doubt a useful skill in the city. But I don't think that expecting a city full of diverse people to be invisible too is reasonable. Or even desirable. If I lived in a city and found myself cheering outrageous and violent treatment of an elderly person because her gospel song disturbs my unreasonable expectations, I'd probably be self-aware enough to recognize it's time I made arrangements to live somewhere more... invisible.

      •  So you believe the disrespect shown by (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chimene, YucatanMan, MRA NY

        physically grabbing a woman and throwing her off the train is more acceptable than the disrespect shown by not stopping singing when asked?

        I mean, get a grip and get some perspective, man.  Life entails and will always entail having some annoyances around you when you're out in public around hundreds of other humans.  We're all capable of dealing with it.  Life should not, however, have to entail being manhandled because we happen to be annoying someone else.  Even if we've been asked to stop.

        We don't complain about cranky old white men until they start trying to take our rights away from us.  That's slightly more critical than having to listen to a sound we find unpleasant for a few minutes.

        I don't know.  I just can't grasp your mindset.  It's so totally bizzarre that someone could actually think that being irritated by some annoying sound - whatever that sound was - justifies physical violence.  And then that you can come up with these totally inapposite comparisons to justify your unjustified reasoning.  Just wierd.

        "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

        by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:56:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I grew up in a house where a non-blood resident (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thankgodforairamerica, MRA NY

          , for lack of describing the entirety of the situation, used to get verbally abusive at excess human-created noise. That might entail me, as a young adult with a social life, maybe coming home at 1am and not turning door knobs ever so softly to his liking. Yes, it was that crazy.

          So perhaps I'm among the few that are hyper-sensitive to excess noise, but it's only as a result of abuse I suffered for sometimes being too loud in his wildly twisted views.

          •  I'm hyper-sensitive to noise of any kind, not (0+ / 0-)

            just excessive noise.  My poor husband doesn't get to have the radio on in the car, gets to have the teevee on a limited amount of time, I hate music.  Just hate sounds, period.  But I would still NEVER consider it my right to have others be silenced in order to be able to feel the sense of calm and control I can feel only in silence.  I avoid crowds whenever possible.  But when I can't, I get to deal with the noise that exists.  I don't get to quiet everyone else because it stresses and annoys me.  It's up to me to avoid noisy situations, not for others to avoid being noisy.

            Please forgive me for not accepting your "poor me, I had such a rough childhood so now I have an excuse to be an asshold as an adult" excuse.

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:18:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  HRd for comment about my childhood (0+ / 0-)

              you don't know me or what i went through so fuck off

              •  Because I've decided that you have some (0+ / 0-)

                real serious issues, and I have to admit getting an unmerited HR poses virtually no concern to me, I'm not going to report you for your Very inappropriate HR.  It's inappropriate for two reasons:  1.  The rules very expressly prohibit giving HR's when you're one of the parties in a "discussion" or disagreement; and 2. Your excuse for giving one is not one of the accepted reasons for giving HRs.

                So consider this your lucky day.  Giving inappropriate HRs such as this can actually get you banned, so you might want to consider controlling yourself a little better.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:31:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  i took off the HR (0+ / 0-)

                  but it still doesn't excuse your baseless comments about my experiences at home. i don't have any "real serious issues" unless you consider the opinion that people should be mindful of their personal volume a serious issue.

                  •  Listen, it's not that I consider your opinion (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    burlydee, MRA NY, a2nite

                    that others should be mindful of their volume a problem.  What I've considered a problem is that you appear to have put your desire that others be mindful as being of greater importance than the roughing up of an 82 year old woman, to the point that you've posted comment after comment about it, without having yet grasped how truly inappropriate such a position is or how self centered your attitude is.  

                    I get that when you're out and about, you HATE all the noise.  It stresses you.  You focus hard on being the perfect person and you just don't understand why everyone else can't work equally hard at it.  You'd just like the world to be a nice quiet oasis, and you have your ideas of where especially those oasis should be.  

                    I saw your comments as being quite callous towards the woman who was manhandled and I let my emotions about that get the better of me.  I do think the fact that you don't seem to be able to identify with the woman at all indicates you do indeed have some issues, and I suspect that means you need some degree of kindness rather than censure.  Therefore, I apologize for irritation and unkind words and will simply hope that you reach the point where you can understand that some peoples' desire for quiet can not take precedence over an old woman's need for some dignity and understanding, even if she happens to be annoying others.

                    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                    by gustynpip on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 12:59:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Excuse me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  You inferred that the poster's childhood experiences made him an "asshold" as an adult. Any HR you get is definitely warranted for a personal attack; and though I haven't posted here lately, I'm going to start anew, and as soon as I've crossed the comment threshold to get my TU status back, I'm coming back here mete one out for your violation of site rules.

                  "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding up both puppets!" -Bill Hicks

                  by Tismo70 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 04:04:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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