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  •  I am truly amazed at the power of some (1+ / 0-)
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    Timaeus

    people here who are able to instantly enter into the mind and heart of another person and come to such conclusive,  morally superior conclusions about that person.

    But I have hope that while a broken person, like all the rest of us, he may promote the cause of the good and of the poor.

    I also note to myself that predicting the behavior of anyone is very precarious.    No one would have predicted that Pope John the XXIII would have convened the progressive Second Vatican Council..... one never knows what will be.

    I am not a RC but I find the choice of this man to be Pope very interesting.  The most profound thing is that he is a Jesuit....no one in their right mind would have predicted a Jesuit.

    I also find it interesting and would expect some positive outcomes from the fact that he has openly criticized unfettered Capitalism.  After all, he has personally witnessed the devastating carnage inflicted upon the people by the Neo-liberal agenda in Latin America, specifically, and the oligarchic financial leadership of American Imperialism in general... . whatever he is, I believe he is against the Republican economic and privatizing agenda.  This may help to lift the world's consciousness to these base policies.  

    I shall observe with great curiosity and hope.

    Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation. - Edward R Murrow

    by gc10 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 09:50:16 AM PDT

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    •  You've read Bergoglio's remarks on (0+ / 0-)

      homosexuality.  You know his stand on contraception.

      In the name of his personal choice of faiths he condemns both.  

      Has he not entered the "mind and heart of another person to come to such conclusive, morally superior conclusions about that person" ?

      It seems to me he has.  Willfully.  And, I hope, increasingly disconnectedly.  

      If he wants to be an inspiring spiritual leader, IMO, he'll need to embrace the vast mosaic and stop telling people what they can and cannot do with their genitals.  

      •  I agree with you about his (1+ / 0-)
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        Remediator

        positions you have noted here.  I wouldn't expect much change and so I am not holding on to any false hope here.

        Your question as to whether he has entered the heart and mind of another is somewhat irrelevant because his responsibility has been to "faithfully" preserve the "teaching of the church."   While you and I may disagree with it's teaching, it would be irresponsible for him to do otherwise.  

        So, I am not expecting much in the area of our concerns, but I am hopeful that his experience of the imperialism of neo-liberal and its inhuman results in S. Am. might cause him to make positive contributions to the world in this arena.

        Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation. - Edward R Murrow

        by gc10 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:29:04 AM PDT

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        •  We'll see how things shake out. (1+ / 0-)
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          gc10

          The Church has forged a large landscape for itself and has vast holdings.  

          Increasingly, though, it has less influence.  It is in a position to make changes in key spiritual zones of human conduct.  One could argue that it is uniquely positioned, and so much so that another model of its kind may never arise.  A phoenix needs to arise from the ashes.  If instead it's a vulture, the shadow across the flock will be too large and too dark.

          Bergoglio certainly is likely to reflect "Church teachings," but in the ecumenical fishbowl, those teachings oppress women, lesbians, and gay men.  There are secular transgressions made by spiritual entities.  The Church can't claim universality but practice exclusion.  That contraindicates Jesus' ministry.  And it pisses people off.  

          In my opinion, the Church has much to answer for regarding its treatment of sexual minorities and women.  Its "teachings" on contraception, for example, are almost universally ignored by its flock, and properly so.  

          No reason other key zones of conduct will not fall under the glare of the future spiritual camera.  The web has given nearly every lay sensibility a zooms lens.  The Church is not just out of touch.  It's dangerously out of touch.

          Kurt Vonnegut told the Indianapolis Star in an interview, "If you limit your choices, you lower your odds."  Bergoglio might do well to spend some time in the Church of Vonnegut unless he wishes to preside over an increasingly less influential church.  

          •  oh, I love Vonnegut (1+ / 0-)
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            Remediator

            you have reminded me of "Cats Cradle" and the necessity of inventing the religion of Bokonon in order to subdue the people.   I still remember one of the "sacraments"... to lay on one's back with one's bare feet touching someone else s bare feet.  :)

            I think it must be recognized that the church is a political entity as much as a spiritual one.  How can it be otherwise where two or more people are gathered?

            Some churches are more democratic than others; reflecting the majority thinking of their members.  Certainly the RCC is not one of them, in fact, it has explicitly said it is not a democracy.  

            The Quakers and Unitarians are probably the most democratic with many Protestant denominations embracing democracy to some degree or another.   Of course, historically, democratic rule has mixed reviews.  Even China embraced democracy for a time towards the end of the Qing Dynasty with disastrous results.

            In the past majorities have often been notoriously wrong.  Most recently, concerning the Iraq war. Humans and their institutions are such complex and curious things, but that makes things interesting.    While I don't agree with the RC teaching concerning contraception, that doesn't in an of itself mean that the teaching is wrong.  A simple declaration on either side does not settle the question.  So we all would do well to remind ourselves that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" while continuing the investigation and debate.  

            The RCC sees one of its primary responsibilities as to "faithfully" hand down the teaching and doctrine from the apostles from generation to generation.   Of course, the Orthodox would argue they have not done so, since they broke away from the "original" church in 1100.  Thus the RCC is in a very real conundrum.

            The 'attributed" words of Jesus are "I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it."  Herein lies much difficulty.  As it is said, "the devil is in the details."

            My personal opinion is that churches by and large, to one degree or another, exert much energy trying to subdue the radicalness of Jesus and reinforce the illusion of certainty in life.  In other words, fear still reigns.  

            It will be interesting to see how things unfold.  Now they have this new Pope who embraces St. Francis who held to the simple teaching of Jesus  who stood in solidarity with the poor, the outcast, and the rejected, which appears to be in opposition to the positions of the all powerful Curia.  Who knows.  The world, god, people often evolve in mysterious ways as evidenced my many unintended consequences.

            One of my favorite historical recollections in this regard was the effort of southern slave holders to convert slaves to Christianity believing that it would help to subdue them.  But in fact, it helped to give them hope for freedom and liberation.  One only needs to look at MLK Jr.s many speeches, which are laced with these Biblical metaphors, to see this continued influence.

            With the world filled with politics, religion, and sex, no one should ever complain that they are bored!  I have enjoyed this brief discussion with you.  Thanks.

            Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation. - Edward R Murrow

            by gc10 on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 03:55:34 AM PDT

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