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  •  I didn't say it was impossible (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lyvwyr101

    But, you can't make irresponsible people responsible with a law.   It's only responsible people who bother to follow laws.  

    The diary says, LOOK AT THIS HUGE LIST.  JUST LOOK AT IT!!!    72 for the year!   FAIL!!!  

    72 of WHAT?    What does 72 mean?   Is it big or small?   How many people had a chance to FAIL, and how many did FAIL?    

    Assuming all the FAILS were in the U.S., I divided 72 FAILS by a U.S. population of 313,914,040  and got the percentage rate .000002%, or 2 FAILS out of 10,000,000 U.S. citizens.   If I erred by a decimal point or two, I apologize.  I don't think I did, but it's possible to slip when converting the scientific notation.    It was so small, the calculation wouldn't display without scientific notation.

    It's still the same thing that the diary said, just presented in a different way.  72 FAILs this year.  But, it looks a little different THIS way.

    It's amazing how people don't want you to read the diary and actually examine the information it contains, but just drink the koolaid.

    I'm sure that there are many FAILs that got missed.  Still, I think my biggest worry is still traffic accidents, and disease.

    •  72 SO FAR this year....it's only March (5+ / 0-)

      and these are only ones David was able find that were reported and available on the web.

      David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

      by PsychoSavannah on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:26:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  72 for this week (6+ / 0-)

      and no...not divided by the whole population, because we don't all worship guns.  i certainly don't have one and don't wish to be lumped together with those that do.

      leave the number crunching to the statisticians.

      and gun deaths rank right up at the top of the list with accidents according to REAL statisticans but you don't want to hear that.

    •  huh? (5+ / 0-)

      You do know that we aren't even 90 days into 2013 right?  So that "72 for the year" thing is stupid.  Also,  that 72 is just 72 examples of THOUSANDS, so all of that idiotic fail rate bullshit represents nothing.

      Your blissful ignorance is keeping you from using your critical thinking stills.

      The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing online commenters that they have anything to say.-- B.F.

      by lcj98 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:32:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think the 72 to which the diarist refers is the (8+ / 0-)

      ... number of people who have shot themselves while cleaning their guns, not the total of "gun fails" for the year. That number is much, much higher.

    •  Actually, (6+ / 0-)

      you wouldn't use the total population of the US.
      You'd use the estimated 35% who are gun owners, since those who don't own guns won't be shooting themselves or others- only perhaps getting shot.

      That's a figure about 109,869,914.

      Then you take the 72 people and divide by that number. .0000065%.

      How many go unreported? Accidental discharges that do property damage or escape consequence of any kind, but are still potetially lethal? There is no efficient way to estimate.

      Some estimates put gun deaths and woundings at about 10,000 per year. While that may be a small percentage of the total population of the United States, by what measure is 10,000 casualties per year acceptable?

      I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

      by Gentle Giant on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:38:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gentle Giant

        the 35% figure is households with a gun, not persons who own guns.

        "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

        by Old Left Good Left on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:55:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The gun violence impact is higher than that. (6+ / 0-)

        The Centers for Disease Control reports the number of gun deaths for 2011 (the most recent year that they have on their website) as 31,672. That rate was 10.3 deaths per 100,000 total population (a much more helpful statistic to report for easy comparisons than a decimal with a bunch of zeroes.) If instead you replace the denominator with gun owners, assuming they constitute the 35% of the population that has been reported based on recent surveys, you get 29.4 deaths per 100,000 gun owners.

        Injury rates are harder to ascertain than death rates, thanks to reporting limitations - so far the NRA has not succeeded in making it illegal to report cause of death as gunshot wound on death certificates, and those are, in principle, all reported to the CDC. But the CDC has a variety of sources including surveys and hospital discharge data. They reported, based on these sources, an average of 62,266 injuries per year during the period 2003-2007. (These are the ones serious enough to get you to a hospital or doctor for treatment.) If we combine those with the firearm death rate, we get 33 gun deaths per 100,000 population or 93 per 100,000 gun owners, every year. Over a 10 year period, that's about 1 death for every 300 gun owners, and one injury/death for every 100 gun owners.

        The annual death rate from guns is about in the same ballpark as the annual death rate from breast cancer or that from prostate cancer. This country has put a huge amount of effort into trying to understand and prevent cancer deaths. But gun advocates have put a huge amount of effort into obstructing national research and prevention efforts for gun deaths. This is wrong. It's time to change.

        •  Quick correction (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Gentle Giant, SoCalSal

          Second paragraph should say 33 gun deaths + injuries. Numbers are right but units wrong.

        •  The most comparable cause of death (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SoCalSal

          is probably automobile accidents.  Given the trend in auto accidents, accidental shooting deaths may well exceed automobile accident deaths within a few years.  Of course, many more people use cars than own guns--and cars are much more useful than guns.

          The differences in our responses are painfully obvious:  we require insurance, automobiles must meet safety standards,  drivers must be licensed and cars must be registered, and there are no special liability shields for automobiles.

          "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

          by Old Left Good Left on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 04:55:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Your math is failing (5+ / 0-)

      David only brings up stories like the above to highlight what a joke the term "Responsible Gun OwnerTM" really is.

      We don't joke about incidents like this one:

      A 3-year-old boy in Greenville, South Carolina was shot in the head and killed on Friday after he started playing with a pink handgun because he thought it was a toy.
      Or these:
      An Alabama man was in surgery on Sunday after police said he shot himself and his 6-year-old daughter while cleaning his gun.
      No arrests have been made in the accidental shooting death of a 4-year-old boy.
       According to the Memphis police, Joshua Johnson was playing with a gun Monday when it went off.  He was pronounced dead on the scene.
      Minneapolis police confirm a 2-year-old boy is dead after he was shot by his 4-year-old brother on Wednesday afternoon.
      Nothing to laugh about here, that's for sure.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:42:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They are tragic (0+ / 0-)

        And, so are the kids who drown in swimming pools and toilets.

        And, so are the kids who fall out of windows and off staircases.  

        And, the kids who are backed over the driveway.  

        And, the kids who are attacked by dogs.

        And, the kids who die from getting hold of toxic substances.

        And, the kids who die from falling and hitting their heads.  

        And the kids who die from being attacked by other kids or adults.

        It's all horrible and tragic.  

        However, when we are considering legislation, I am not going to be railroaded by a list of sad stories.   We could as easily list some tragic deaths in car accidents and decide to outlaw cars.   YES, it's tragic.    Acknowledging tragic events does not obligate one to support someone's political agenda.

    •  For starters (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener, Miggles

      the denominator isn't the entire population.

      "Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation..."--David St. Hubbins

      by Old Left Good Left on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 11:54:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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