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View Diary: So You're Shocked Some Young, Southern White Dude Defended Slavery at CPAC? (249 comments)

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  •  Northern racism is less overt (41+ / 0-)

    Dave Chappelle has riffed on this, I've lived in Boston for 20 years and there is some racism but it is not overt. It's things like the busing riots in 1975, led mostly by whites from South Boston. It's things like the Red Sox were the last MLB team to integrate, a full 12 years after Jackie Robinson, when they added Pumpsie Green. It can be as simple as someone on the T never giving their seat up to a Black lady but always for a White one. Or it could be the sordid history of the Catholic Church which supported slavery.

    •  The Catholic Church has a mixed history in the US (20+ / 0-)

      If you look at the history of the Catholic church in the US, it's a mixed bag.  Southern Catholic bishops threw their lot in with the confederacy shamelessly defending Slavery while clergy in free states often participated in the abolitionist movement.  Worldwide the Catholic Church's history on slavery is shameful but Popes in the 19th century had finally come around to the notion that slavery was indeed a very bad thing.

      But that said the tensions between European "ethnic" communities and African Americans remain.  The draft riots in NYC during the civil war pointed to an Irish community that wasn't' pro-slavery but didn't want to be forced to fight and was frustrated at competing for jobs with free blacks.

      •  Thanks for the info (10+ / 0-)

        I had never analyzed the Catholic church influence in the South before or after the Civil War.

        The Catholic church seems to still be struggling with their role;

        Catholicism and the Old South

        The Old South, Tate shows, had the only truly European civilization ever known in America. That is in the sense that it was a civilization rooted in its own soil. It was one that produced men who measured their success in life according to non-material standards, perhaps the chief of them being honor. It was an agricultural civilization, and a hierarchical one. That by itself was enough to make Pius or even most ordinary Catholics of the day sympathetic to the South. Certainly the Catholic Bishops of the South were sympathetic. There is no record of any failing to support the Confederacy. One of them, Bishop Patrick Lynch of Charleston, South Carolina, became President Davis’ envoy to Ven. Pope Pius IX.
        And this;

        Catholics in the South photo ScreenHunter_84Mar160920_zpsb05d56b6.jpg

        It seems to me that at best. as in the case of the Catholic church during the Nazi era and the Argentinean Dirty War, stood by during the Abolition movement and the Civil War.

        Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

        by Shockwave on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:24:46 AM PDT

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        •  It's as with many things nuanced (5+ / 0-)

          Notice I said the "clergy" up north being involved, not the bishops.  Catholic bishops gave lip service to the idea that slavery was wrong but did not involve themselves in the abolitionist movement as that was a "Protestant thing".  

          But Catholic Irish radical Daniel O’Connell did influence the US Abolitionist movment and it appears some Catholic communities in the mid-west were assisting runaway slaves, perhaps German Catholics felt differently the the large Irish Catholic communities in the east.

          It's like so many times before - the leadership is cowardly but amongst the rank and file there are some heroes.

    •  Yes living in the NE most of my life, what we see (21+ / 0-)

      and hear are whispers, people in a corner of a resturant or bar or at a party or picnic making racist statements in whispers and loud tones.  

      But the racists here in the northeast, I think, tend to be in deep denial because they work with a black guy, their neighbor is a black woman, their boss is a Latino, they play softball with a minority and go out for a beer.

      In the North, there is more of the ....

      I cannot be racist, I have a friend who is black.
      Syndrome going on..I see it a lot.

      That is very very common here in PA  for sure, saw it my whole life. It is not open, it is very covert, done in whispers.

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:26:14 AM PDT

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      •  I grew up in the Northeast, (4+ / 0-)

        Where we had one -- literally, one -- African-American child in our entire elementary school.  Yes, there's racism in the North.

        "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

        by Nespolo on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:50:20 AM PDT

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        •  wierd we always had about 5 Black kids (0+ / 0-)

          in our classes. But I grew up in a suburb of a big city.

          Then again some Northeastern states only have about 5% African Americans in their populations. That is in fact one in 20 if you have a class of 20.

          I'm not arguing there is no racism in the North. Just that not having a lot of Black people may not necessarily mean that on its own. Perhaps you know more, something like your town kept Black people out.

          •  State vs county (0+ / 0-)

            Sure, but the places where black people live in those states, white people send their kids to suburban schools with few blacks. Its standard operating procedure

            There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

            by slothlax on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 11:35:08 PM PDT

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      •  I don't hear racist whispers very often (0+ / 0-)

        I think a handful in my entire adult life. But perhaps I am not sensitized to them. I also have lived in neighborhoods with very mixed ethnicities in the city.

        Once in a while I do hear a 'hintishly" negative comment about Black people in a backhand way. Such as comments about certain neighborhoods, for example. The last time I recall this was after the election in Nov...something was said hintishly about Obama by the owner of a diner I was talking to. I questioned him about it directly and watched him wiggle.

        Primarily it seems to me that less educated and older (older than 50) people might have that attitude.

        Among people older than 50 (and especially over 65) and especially less educated people I do see that "I'm not racist I have a Black friend" mentality. You pegged that one.

        I dont' see much racism in people under you find it has a generational skew?

    •  *nod* (9+ / 0-)

      Yup, as a white person who's lived exclusively in the North all my life (Connecticut, Iowa, Ohio) I hear this from black people pretty frequently: some variation on "in the South at least they're honest about it."

      Not to say that the North is more racist, or (depending on who you ask) that the sides are equal, but that Northern racism is a lot more likely to be subtle, implied, or deniable. A Northern white person is very unlikely to say the N-word, but they might make vague excuses for avoiding places where black people are. They won't overtly wish for re-segregation, but they might quietly move to a mostly-white outer suburb.

      I'm really saying, just because I'm in the North doesn't make me immune to racism.

    •  It's a struggle though to think how a racist (0+ / 0-)

      owner (Red Sox) is somehow associated with a city. At the same time that family owned the red Sox, another white guy owned the Celtics, who were the first team with an all-black starting 5, and the first with a black coach. neither really reflect the attitudes of the city of Boston (segregated and racist).

      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

      by upstate NY on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 05:28:38 PM PDT

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      •  I notice you use "reflect" in the present tense (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tennessee Dave

        that Boston today is segregated and racist but tie it to all to the all white Red Sox decades ago as if they were in the same time frame.

        MA (greater Boston has 2/3rds the populaton of MA) elected the nations first Black Senator (since Reconstruction?) in the 1960s. MA also has the 3rd Black Governor in US history, currently And you mention the Celtics..

        So, it is complicated to say "boston today is segregated and racist" I think, in the way that it is MORE SO than other places.

        MA is also far behind in promoting women. We' have NEVER had a woman elected to be Governor OR Senator (until Elizabeth Warren). While CA has had 2 female SEnators for decades.
        I think one issue with MA/Boston is that things are slow to change. I am sure we are racist as well but not sure if we CURRENTLY are MORE racist than other cities

        •  I was in JP this week (0+ / 0-)

          It looks as segregated there as any northeastern city. Are you saying it's not?

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:12:14 PM PDT

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    •  I'm in Boston too (0+ / 0-)

      born here and lived here most (not all) of my adult life.
      I don't notice people not getting up for Black people.

      One thing to Boston's credit. We (MA) had the first African American Senator since reconstruction, in the 1960s. 2/3 of the population of MA lives in "greater Boston", ie within about 25 miles of Boston.

      Because of busing Boston got tagged as a very racist place but its more complicated. People think that busing was only about sure was ugly and a lot of racism surfaced but remember, these two neighborhoods of Whites (Charlestown and Southie) were poor and working class neighborhoods. They felt that the elite were forcing them to send their out of the neighborhood to WORSE schools. They did not think of the greater good and fairness...but most parents wouldn't if their kid was being forced to go to a worse school and forced into a 45 min busride to do that. (that the worse schools were in the Black areas is notable, however). The anger came out as racism in the classic way that poor Whites have stereotypically held it.

       I am not sure Boston is more racist than other Northern cities then but especially now, since busing was over a generation ago anyway. City of Boston overwhelmingly went for Brooks, IIRC, during his election. That was in the era of fact, a decade before.

      We haven't had a female Senator or an elected female Governor yet. There is someothing old fashioned or slow to change about Boston that goes beyond just race. (you spoke of integration of sports teams).

      I do agree there must be racism in Boston. I just can't compare it to other cities and using busing like many people do is sort of symplistic. Two neighborhoods of disempowered poor White people feeling forced against their will to put their kids in worse schools. They erupted with racism but I can't say that if we picked similar neighborhoods in other cities and did the same thing it would not result the same way in the 1970s, thought people surely would rather think that their citizens would not react that way. Racism was alive and doing well in our society back then even more than now.

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