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View Diary: Bank Run in Cyprus, Will it Spread to Southern Europe? (322 comments)

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  •  Eventually this will lead to a global revolt (53+ / 0-)

    against the Too-Big-To-Fail banks.
       Their own greed and theft will cause it.

    The question is how much of our wealth will be stolen before that happens?

    ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

    by gjohnsit on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 07:05:05 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think you are correct. Going after personal (17+ / 0-)

      checking/savings account could be the very wake up call needed to break this open and get the banks/financial institutions under control.

    •  According to many here (18+ / 0-)

      A revolt would be akin to committing suicide. That's why the authorities would feel justified in declaring martial law or a bank holiday at the very minimum.

      I really have a hard time with attorneys who argue that the TBTFs should be given a get out of jail free card. But I saw it here in response to my posts. Once we have  attorneys suggest that bypassing the rule of law for financial and political expediency is something that should be done, we have crossed the invisible line that separates us from a third world banana republic. (no Insults to Bananas intended) .

      Said simply: "We believe in a Two tiered system of Justice". Although they will dress it up in other languages.

      Once we have gone that far, then revolt isn't far away once the Govt arbitrarily and capriciously confiscates people's savings to bail out senior bondholders .

      Why should any bank be trusted after this in any country? The excuse they used was beyond belief. We are going after Russian Mob Money as they take 6.9% out of small accounts too. When does it stop and where?

      Once precedent is established , the reaction will be closely monitored. If the reaction falls within acceptable parameters, we can count on this being used everywhere there are banks in troubles. Imagine the BHCs who have brokerage and wealth management accounts. Confiscation could mean 100s of billions here all under the auspices of it being done by private institutions. You know, the same ones many of us here continue to push to have prosecuted.

      “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

      by Dburn on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 10:34:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The "Russian mob money" rationale (9+ / 0-)

        is pathetic. Bad enough to rob people of their savings, but to come up with an excuse like that is adding insult to injury.

      •  I'm with Holder on this. (6+ / 0-)

        The way things are set up, if we attack the banks, we attack the parasite that has insinuated itself into our economy to the point that attacking the parasite is tantamount to suicide. He didn't say that. I did.

        We are shooting at (or holding our fire from) an enemy in a hall of mirrors.

        Seems to be that government is collapsing and that the free market nuts are on their way to a total victory: chaos, no rules, no accountability, a world-wide bizarre full of cheaters, looters and murderers.

        A world-wide crime family.

        If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

        by Bensdad on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 12:23:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Rec x 1000 (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        northsylvania, RWood, Joieau, Dburn
        I really have a hard time with attorneys who argue that the TBTFs should be given a get out of jail free card. But I saw it here in response to my posts. Once we have  attorneys suggest that bypassing the rule of law for financial and political expediency is something that should be done, we have crossed the invisible line that separates us from a third world banana republic. (no Insults to Bananas intended) .
        Attorneys will represent all parties in this upcoming dispute, and so will benefit no matter what.

        The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

        by ozsea1 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 12:31:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is why their trial balloon (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dburn, nchristine, jayden, Cliss

        is a nation with just a fraction more than 1.11 million citizens. And probably less than a small handful of Russian and Ukrainian mobsters among them. Taking 6.9% of the average Cypriot's banked wealth isn't going to cure what ails the system, but it is going to be a microcosm of what would happen if the ECB does this across the board. Or just to the southern states.

        IOW, if the population of Cyprus stages a revolt because of this and installs a new government that doesn't recognize membership in the EU and de-couples from the ECB, it's no big loss to the EU and isn't likely to spread like Arab Spring did. Do not overlook the fact that the countries which have undergone popular revolutions were all part of the EU's Euro-Mediterranean Partnership (a.k.a. the Barcelona Process).

        •  I agree, this is as close to an economic lab (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, nchristine, Cliss

          experiment we are going to get. First try it on a small relatively developed country and see what happens. If the bloodletting can be contained then move it on up to a larger country. Do it enough and pretty soon it's policy.

          Don't have the reserve currency to print your way out of trouble, then by God they'll just confiscate your wealth because those German Bondholders have to be protected.

          It doesn't matter that depositors come first in the line of a banks creditors. They cannot and will not force a haircut off the trillions owned by the wealthy if they are enough poor people's asses they can pull it out of.
           

          “ Success has a great tendency to conceal and throw a veil over the evil of men. ” — Demosthenes

          by Dburn on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:13:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly right. This is just (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nchristine, Dburn, Cliss

            Europe's version of the Great Generational Cash-Out that's been going on over here since the turn of the millennium. Only here they've so far limited their takings to real property holdings. Which they can do because in the US home ownership was/is the primary asset of average people, rather than large savings accounts in banks. Other than pensions and 401Ks and such, which have been dinged to death since the fall of 2008. They don't call it a "savings levy" here. They call it raiding the retirement savings of entire generations. Lord knows we're quite used to that.

            Somehow I don't think Europe is going to take it lying down like we have. At least, I hope not.

          •  It is important to remember (5+ / 0-)

            that to the infinitely wealthy Masters of the Universe [MoU's], money is just a tool to be used for specific purposes. In a fiat system like our Fed and the European Central Bank, vast amounts of 'money' - the medium of exchange - can be made to disappear practically overnight [liquidated] and those MoU's will never miss it. It's just entries on a balance sheet by that point.

            There's no real shortage of money and there never will be. It's just tokens (print as many as you like!) being moved around and/or made to disappear into the socio-political equivalent of a black hole, for the purpose of extracting that which is and has always been the only real wealth in this world - property and labor. To whatever end the MoUs have in mind when they engineer such things as mass global impoverishment [a.k.a. worldwide depression].

            IOW, there are indeed reasons why a money supply waxes and wanes, having nothing whatsoever to do with money itself (which is worthless). Those reasons seldom have anything to do with the average person's meager provision for life and death on planet earth, apart from the ability of the MoU's to cash out and start the whole indentured servitude/mass enslavement game over again every generation or two or three.

        •  The biggest money laundering country in the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joieau, Dburn, Cliss

          eurozone is Luxemborg, and the former PM of Luxemborg until recently ran the eurozone (Juncker). AND, while he was heading it, Lux. and Austria (the two countries other than Cyprus with secretive banking ala Switzerland) both rejected a bill for bank trasnparency.

          There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

          by upstate NY on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:18:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cliss

            Luxemborg and Austria haven't yet had to be bailed out by the ECB, and Cyprus has. These countries are part of the core EU operatives. They are not debtor nations on the unstable fringe.

            •  That's not the point. The point is that this (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dburn, Joieau, Cliss

              is an attack on Cyprus's poorer people BECAUSE their banks take part in the same banking practices that are also in the core. None of the other bailout countries were forced to do this.

              There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

              by upstate NY on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:57:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  As others have stated, Cyprus is a 'small' country (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dburn, Joieau, upstate NY, Cliss

                and is in the 'hinterlands' of 'society'.  This is a trial balloon.  If the big banks get away with this confiscation, they WILL make this part of the future agreements with other countries.  The big banks have reached the point where they are not going to just take the word of the country gov't that that country will 'grow' out of its economic problems.  The banks are going to want a pound of flesh before giving out an ounce of loan, in addition to the interest on the loans.  I'm reading it as something similar to the mortgage insurance payments that banks require on mortgages that have less than a 20% down payment.

              •  The other bailout countries (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cliss

                apparently don't operate as offshore laundry facilities for dirty money from the Russian and Ukrainian mafias. Its banks also hold the liquid life savings and income for expats from Britain and elsewhere. And the savings of the slightly over 1 million citizens of the country.

                I haven't figured out what Cyprus did to get itself into enough debt to Germany to NEED a bailout from the ECB. I mean, the banks have plenty of money. Which is why the ECB has ordered the Cypriot government to seize money out of the people's accounts. If there were no money in the banks and the wealthy citizens had moved theirs to more traditional hiding places (like Switzerland, which you may note is NOT part of the EU/ECB system), then the ECB would simply have ordered austerity imposed on the population just as they did for Greece and Ireland and Spain.

                At any rate, Cyprus can't be that much in debt. It's holding multi-billions in ill-gotten gains for two of the biggest criminal organizations on the continent. Dirty laundry, so to speak, which should be well more subject to seizure than the savings of the average Cypriot family. The fact that the ECB is aiming at the average family's savings and not at the mobs highlights the trial balloon nature of this move. I guess we'll see how it all works out when the decisions are made.

                Meanwhile, I'd be moving my money (if I had any) outside the EU/ECB system entirely, right now. I expect there are lots of people all over the EU who are doing that very thing.

                •  Do you know about Luxembourg (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Joieau

                  and Austria? How are they different? Both those countries recently killed an EU law for bank transparency. These are regular practices all over Europe.

                  Look at the Luxembourg banking sizes compared to the size of the country.

                  Cyprus is a surplus nation in Europe--it sends more money to the EU than it takes. It is not in great debt. It's problem is that the banks were forced to take 50% haircuts on heavy loans to the banks in the European periphery, and Cyprus, to prevent collapse of these banks, guaranteed their assets. Ie. same story as Spain and Ireland. Countries with low debt and low debt to GDP that were done in by their banks.

                  There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                  by upstate NY on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 06:52:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So... because Cyprus banks (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    upstate NY

                    are doing so well with all that dirty mob money and the life savings of expats and Cypriots, they're being dinged to cover bailouts to other countries in worse shape?

                    And if so, when can we expect German citizens to have 7-10% of their bank accounts confiscated to cover those bailouts? How about the rest of relatively 'rich' northern Europe?

                    •  I might have misstated something. (0+ / 0-)

                      The bailout is about the gov'ts guarantees to the banks, which sunk gov't finances. In other words, this is like Ireland. Cyprus USED TO BE a surplus country. Until the banking crisis.

                      Spain and Ireland are similar in that they too had low dent to GDP. Spain even had a surplus as well.

                      The bailout covers Cyprus's own bailout of its banks.

                      The irony here is that the Cypriot banks have no senior paper. They simply aren't leveraged that way. They have 100% deposits for all loans that are out, and they don't sell much in bonds. They are clearly simply taking a small % of the outsized deposits, half of them from Russians.

                      All I'm pointing out is that these banks are like the banks in Luxemborg. In that country, which is at the heart of the EU in more ways than one, people make an incredibly high average wage largely because the banks serve as recycling mechanisms for money looking to find a secret home.

                      But the incentive here will also be to have wealthy people looking to deposit funds in core banks.

                      There are two kinds of people in this world. The kind who divide the world into two kinds of people, and the kind who don't.

                      by upstate NY on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:18:44 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  They will take as much as they can, gjohnsit... (7+ / 0-)

      ...and mark my words...this will galvanize angry people at all points of the ideological spectrum. Once this hits the atmosphere after the weekend, you'll see the outrage across the globe.

      Adequate health care should be a LEGAL RIGHT in the U.S without begging or bankruptcy. Until it is, we should not dare call our society civilized.

      by Love Me Slender on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 11:10:39 AM PDT

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    •  time to channel Teddy Roosevelt and break them up (5+ / 0-)

      TBTF = candidate for fission.

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 01:56:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And what happens (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cliss

      after the revolts are quickly and brutally suppressed.

      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by ActivistGuy on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:57:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Will they be? (0+ / 0-)

        You could have said the same thing about Arab Spring and you would have been wrong.

         A European Spring is probably right around the corner.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:06:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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