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View Diary: Guys, If The Girl Is Drunk It Is Rape – Period (165 comments)

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  •  Wow, MRA sure is all over this diary. (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, Derfel
    Hidden by:
    Mark Mywurtz

    I feel sorry for you diarist, apparently they picked your diary as their latest target.

    "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

    by Silvia Nightshade on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:35:39 PM PDT

    •  I'll HR that (5+ / 0-)

      The diary is an apparent attempt to define rape based on intoxication, but the diarist has not only not been clear about what intoxication actually is--because it's not always cut and dried--but he has actually found a need to clarify himself in an update.  Not to mention, he has chastised commenters and stated that people involved in consensual sexual relationships deserve STDs and rape charges.

      There is plenty to disagree with or expect clarification of here.  If you write a diary with this many holes that demonizes people for fairly common behavior, such as hooking up at a bar, you open yourself up for questions.  

      But then you come along and sling "MRA" at those of us who think the diarist has made his point pretty weakly.  Suggesting that anyone on this comment thread is "pro-rape" or that anyone here is targeting the diarist is a crock of shit.  There is nothing helpful about the diarist defining decidedly consensual behavior as rape just as there is nothing helpful about you insinuating that anyone who questions that is a rape apologist.  Good grief.  If you want my opinions on rape in general, you can peruse my comments since the Steubenville incident.  

      I suspect you'll have a hard time slinging around "MRA" so easily if you do.  

      Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

      by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:59:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why are you HRing? (3+ / 0-)

        Disagreement is not a reason to HR.

        And the law is clear about intoxication and consent. If someone is intoxicated consent can NOT be granted. There is no wiggle room. There is no grey area.

        Despite the wishes of many commenters.

        "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:53:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Disagreement, no (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JBNathan85, cryonaut

          But calling those of us who question this diary "the MRA" is definitely HRable.  

          The law may be clear, but this diary isn't.  

          I don't think anyone "wishes" for gray area.  Just like I hope you don't want clearly consensual behavior--like having sex wanted by both parties after a few drinks--to put someone at risk of conviction.  

          Again, I HRed for the nasty comment suggesting a bunch of us here are rape apologists and I take issue with the diary because the diarist attempts to define rape based on intoxication but does little to clear up what "intoxication" is....and that matters.  

          Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

          by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:04:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Since so many of us have been raped (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            UnaSpenser

            I think a little over caution is in order.

            "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

            by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:14:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I guess this would qualify as caution: (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut, DeadHead, FrankRose
              I don't care if she rips off her clothes, lies down with her legs wide open and begs you to have sex, if she is drunk it is rape.

              Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

              by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:16:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Exactly. With the neurological effects of alcohol (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                UnaSpenser

                impairing judgement, making ones senses go into overload their brain may not even remember the event. Having sex with them would not be consensual in any sense of the word.

                 What you describe is clearly impairment.

                "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

                by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:22:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is? (4+ / 0-)

                  I am interested to find out:  At what point between a sip of beer and complete blackout is a person drunk enough to be impaired and incapable of consent?  I think I could see it, I think you could see it, but apparently a lot of people can't or won't.  

                  Am I incapable of consent after one beer?  Three?  Twelve?  What if I'm giggling a lot?  Slurring?  Stumbling?  

                  I know I'm going to get a bunch of crap, but if you're saying that sex with a drunk person is rape as both you and the diarist clearly are, you should be able to say what "drunk" is.  I'm guessing it isn't a beer.  I'm guessing it isn't .08.  But I'm sure not clear on what it IS.  

                  Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                  by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:33:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Are you a doctor? (0+ / 0-)

                    Why are you raising the strawman of levels of intoxication?

                    There is no way we can tell those that may rape someone that is drunk to verify levels of inebriation.

                    That is ridiculous.

                    We tell them if alcohol or drugs are involved consent can not be obtained.

                    Safe, Sensible, and Logical.

                    As well as legal because the law considers any alcohol in their system in the case of rape as intoxication.

                    "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

                    by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:38:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Strawman? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JBNathan85, melfunction, FrankRose

                      That's real world, Horace.  People have sex at every level of intoxication, from a single sip to blackout.  Your apparent position is that if I have sex after a single sip of alcohol, I've been raped.  

                      If that isn't an accurate assessment of your position, you sure aren't willing to be more specific than that.  If that IS your position, I consider that just as ridiculous as verifying inebriation levels.

                      Your last sentence is a little weasel-y.  You state:  

                      As well as legal because the law considers any alcohol in their system in the case of rape as intoxication.
                      But it DOESN'T consider any alcohol in the system in the case of SEX to be RAPE.  Your statement implies that some other standard of rape has been met.  

                      ANY sex that occurs after a single drop of alcohol is sex.  Got it.  That's sensible and logical.  

                      Courts will be very busy.  

                      Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                      by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:48:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Mouthwash (0+ / 0-)

                      "We tell them if alcohol or drugs are involved consent can not be obtained.

                      Safe, Sensible, and Logical.

                      As well as legal because the law considers any alcohol in their system in the case of rape as intoxication."

                      This would then apply to mouthwash then too since it has alcohol in it.

                      Now you can't rinse out your mouth before sex or you are a rapist.

                      •  Do you drink the mouthwash? (0+ / 0-)

                        You could get more alcohol from a brown banana if you just rinse.

                        "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

                        by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 06:59:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's on your breath (0+ / 0-)

                          This was clearly illustrated in a study conducted with Listerine mouthwash on a breath machine and reported in an article entitled "Field Sobriety Testing: Intoxilyzers and Listerine Antiseptic" published in the July 1985 issue of The Police Chief (p. 70). Seven individuals were tested at a police station, with readings of 0.00%. Each then rinsed his mouth with 20 milliliters of Listerine mouthwash for 30 seconds in accordance with directions on the label. All seven were then tested on the machine at intervals of one, three, five and ten minutes. The results indicated an average reading of 0.43 blood-alcohol concentration,

                          •  Continued (0+ / 0-)

                            indicating a level that, if accurate, approaches lethal proportions. After three minutes, the average level was still 0.020, despite the absence of any alcohol in the system. Even after five minutes, the average level was 0.011.

                            In another study, reported in 8(22) Drinking/Driving Law Letter 1, a scientist tested the effects of Binaca breath spray on an Intoxilyzer 5000. He performed 23 tests with subjects who sprayed their throats and obtained readings as high as 0.81—far beyond lethal levels. The scientist also noted that the effects of the spray did not fall below detectable levels until after 18 minutes.

                          •  When you are arrested you get a breathalyzer (0+ / 0-)

                            If you are raped in a civilized country you are taken to the hospital and your blood is drawn and tested.

                            "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 07:24:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Aside from my "Strawman?" post (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DeadHead

                      which you didn't respond to, I still think you need to provide a little more to go on.  I mean if this is true and not just "good advice":

                      There is no way we can tell those that may rape someone that is drunk to verify levels of inebriation.

                      That is ridiculous.

                      We tell them if alcohol or drugs are involved consent can not be obtained.

                      Then how can a would-be rapist even always know if the person he thinks is consenting is under the influence?  Not everyone is capable of just looking at someone and knowing if they have used drugs or alcohol--and by your standards, any use at all makes consent impossible.  By your standards, unless I have been watching the person for hours, I can't possibly know if they are actually consenting.  That's kind of unrealistic and not at all like the Steubenville case, don't you think?

                      Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                      by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 07:17:51 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Can you define "drugs"? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Horace Boothroyd III

                      Besides the obvious, like benzodiazepines and GHB. Do all scheduled drugs fall into this category?

                      •  . (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Dopetron
                        What is a Legal Drug?

                        A legal drug or intoxicants are drugs which are not prohibited by the United Nations Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs. This classification therefore enables legal drugs to be sold over the counter in various retail stores or food-suppliers throughout the world and the United States.

                        Individuals will consume legal drugs for a plethora of reasons; a legal drug may be used for a medicinal purpose or may be purchased as an intoxicating agent. The most commonly used intoxicant, throughout the world, is alcohol; however, many other legal drugs are used for intoxicating purposes, including various native plants and tobacco.

                        Similar to illicit substances, the field of legal drugs is divided into categories depending on what the makeup of the drug and what kind of affect the drug has on its user.

                        "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

                        by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 07:33:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  And after seeing how (0+ / 0-)

        the conversation has devolved and gotten worse after I posted that comment, I stand by it.  I'll take that HR and wear it proudly.

        "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

        by Silvia Nightshade on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 04:37:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I shouldn't have to offer clarifcations (0+ / 0-)

        I responded as I did with an update because it was obvious that people weren't reading my post completely and were inserting their own bias into it.

        You can construct all the straw men you want but don't twist my words please.

        I wished you would spend as much time teaching men to control themselves as you do trying to poke holes in my post.

    •  Can you clarify for me (0+ / 0-)

      If I am on the list of those you consider "MRA" participants in this diary?

      If I am, please specify the comment(s) of mine you feel are indicative of my association with this group.

      Thanks for your time.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:32:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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