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View Diary: Arrests Made for Death Threats Against Steubenville Rape Victim (259 comments)

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  •  You having good time building and kicking the (5+ / 0-)

    crap out of those straw men?

    income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

    by JesseCW on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 09:29:50 PM PDT

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    •  But those two boys raped a girl. (0+ / 0-)

      Does that not bother you? Why do you want to let "kids" like that get off easy? That's what I'm taking from this. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

      •  You're not just wrong. You're not even making (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, Deep Texan

        an effort to be right if this

        Does that not bother you? Why do you want to let "kids" like that get off easy?
        is what you're taking from this.

        In the first place, we were talking about the teenage girls making death threats.

        We, as a Nation, rejected treating children like adults about 70 years ago when we started dedicating ourselves to concepts like reform, and started to realize that you cannot be just without also being humane.

        No, teenage girls making death threats is not the same thing as adults doing it.  From what I've seen, I'd say a five year sentence with a chance at parole in two and a shot at getting the crime expunged if they comply with parole terms would probably fit the crime for juveniles.

        If you think that's a slap on the wrist I really don't think there's a reason for us to converse.

        income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

        by JesseCW on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:00:26 PM PDT

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        •  I'm not talking about the girls. (0+ / 0-)

          I want the boys in prison, not the girls!

        •  Wait, you thought I wanted the girls in prison? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheDuckManCometh

          Oh boy... I got myself into a stupid situation.

           I think the punishment for the girls is appropriate. Because they're friends with the rapists, it triggered my anger about the rapists and I got kind of off-topic.

           I've lost myself in anger because I hate what happened in Steubenville.

        •  Wow (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil
          No, teenage girls making death threats is not the same thing as adults doing it.  From what I've seen, I'd say a five year sentence with a chance at parole in two and a shot at getting the crime expunged if they comply with parole terms would probably fit the crime for juveniles.
          Notice that this is a far more severe sentence than the juvenile rapists got!

          What the fuck is going on here?

    •  Really, Jesse? (0+ / 0-)

      Why am I the bad guy simply for wanting two rapists to be punished?

      •  Civilized people... (6+ / 0-)

        have long recognized that juveniles are not as responsible for their actions as adults. This is physically indicated by the growth the brain continues to exhibit well into the 20s of most humans. That isn't to say the rapists are not to be held accountable, just that they are juveniles and are due the opportunity for reform that all juveniles should be.
        Before you get on that soapbox, no amount of punishment to the rapists going to help the victim. She needs a lot of support, but revenge shouldn't be part of it.

        This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

        by Tonedevil on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:04:26 PM PDT

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        •  Those guys were responsible. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, absdoggy, Eyesbright, CayceP

          They knew well enough what they were doing to laugh about it and advertise like they did. You see them as misguided kids who made a mistake, I see them as cold-hearted rapists that went out of their way to hurt a girl.

           They revoked their status as juveniles the moment they raped a drunk girl. Fuck them.

          •  Again... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Deep Texan

            I am just happy that an ignoramus such as yourself isn't actually part of the justice system. Feel free to demonstrate why I'm correct as many times as you like.

            This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

            by Tonedevil on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:40:05 PM PDT

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            •  I'm sorry you feel that way. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              absdoggy

              I could never forgive a teenager for rape any more than an adult.

               So if some teenager rapes one of the women in my family, I'll remember what you said. I'll disregard what he did. Who cares, right? He's just a kid! He raped my family, but how could a kid know that rape is wrong?

            •  Would you care if they raped your daughter? (0+ / 0-)

              Would they still be naïve kids if they did this to your family?

               You care more about sparing them from punishment than justice for their victims. That bothers me. This isn't shoplifting or graffiti that we're talking about. It's rape. A very serious and traumatic violent crime.

              •  Revenge makes... (0+ / 0-)

                everything better.

                This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                by Tonedevil on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:55:46 PM PDT

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                •  Compassion didn't matter to the rapists. (0+ / 0-)

                  It still doesn't. Doesn't that bother you? Why do you want to spare these guys after what they did?

                   Considering that they date raped a girl, they deserve revenge. They rate revenge.

                   So no, I can't do what you do and forgive something like rape. I want people like that punished. I want real justice, you know for people who get hurt, not the criminals who went out of their way to hurt the victims in the first place.

                  •  If you will... (0+ / 0-)

                    just assure me you don't in any way shape or form have any authority over the justice system I will be able to sleep tonight. Despite your protestations to the contrary I care about the victim. I also am concerned about the perpetrators. Regardless of your wishes they will be out and free in society when they become adults.  It seems like every attempt to insure they don't offend in this manor again is a win.
                    The victim and the perpetrator are separate issues. Now that the horrific deed is done in no way does punishment serve the victim. If the perpetrator can understand what they did wrong and why it is wrong perhaps they don't need to be incarcerated for their adult life, as you seem to be advocating for.

                    This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                    by Tonedevil on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 11:23:50 PM PDT

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                    •  I'll never have authority in the justice sytem. (0+ / 0-)

                      I think your concern for the perpetrators is admirable but equally disgusting. They're sex offenders. Giving them a warning isn't what you do to people like that. They don't deserve to be "out and free in society". I don't think so. Their punishment is so light that I think they'll take it for granted. It tends to happen with sex offenders.

                       Don't you think the victim would be happier knowing her rapists got punished? Instead they're getting a light punishment, one that is resulting in death threats to the victim.

                       We'll see though. If they never does this again, then okay I see your point. That doesn't absolve them in any way though. It shouldn't.

                       I still say they should be incarcerated for a nice chunk of their lives, but if juvenile detention somehow changes them for the better (which I doubt), then fine.

                       

                    •  Here's A Win For You (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Eyesbright
                      It seems like every attempt to insure they don't offend in this manor again is a win.
                      Well, then, we need to get the laws reformed so that perps like this are kept behind bars for a time appropriate to the severity of their offense. When they get out, presbyopia and creaky joints ought to inhibit their search and pursuit of further victims.

                      Sorry, but your misguided sympathy is just reinforcing the stereotype of liberals as soft-hearted and softer-headed nitwits.

                      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

                      by stevemb on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:50:58 AM PDT

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                  •  From personal experience, a cousin several (5+ / 0-)

                    years younger than these guys sexually assaulted my daughter ~ 7. Took a lot for me to forgive him, even knowing how much abuse he was getting from his father. They both resolved it a decade ago. I was able to confront it during the Sandusky scandal and although it will probably be years before I see him again, if ever, it will be OK.

                    In this case the young men obviously needed to be charged, the conviction and sentencing are appropriate. This is a situation where they can be so destroyed they go on to other crimes; or get counseling to understand what they did wrong, what contributed to it (alcohol) and to learn the lesson rather than lose it.

                    Much better that they are in a juvenile facility that has a better chance of staff who understand the difference in mental development of a teen and an adult 25 or older.

                    And that development phase was cited last year in Elena Kagan's decision on punishment for juveniles tried as adults.

                    "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                    by Ginny in CO on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 02:33:04 AM PDT

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              •  Do you have kids? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                Would you allow a 16-year-old complete freedom to come and go as he pleased and make all his own decisions, with no restrictions at all - to decide not to go to school, take out credit cards, join the army, get married, drink, drive, take drugs, donate a kidney, father a child? Would you absolve yourself of responsibility for making sure that he eats, has clean clothes, comes home at night and sleeps in a bed?

                I certainly hope not.

                Because he's not an adult. Because he doesn't have adult judgment, adult impulse control, adult foresight into consequences. As a parent, you'd be remiss to treat him as an adult. You'd be guilty of criminal neglect of your responsibilities.

                We don't treat kids as adults because they aren't adults.

                We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

                by denise b on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:23:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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