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  •  Dont think so (20+ / 0-)
    power/dominance interpretation was debunked not long ago, in favor of the simpler interpretation that it's what it looks like:  stolen sex.
    Stolen sex might be an appealing explanation for date rape, or HS jocks raping a HS girl. It doesn't provide any explanation for the rape of middle aged and elderly women, which happens often enough.  

    Yeah, right.

    heard from men of my acquaintance how overwhelming the desire for sex is
    Somehow the vast majority of men (including at that age) manage to control those urges.

    "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

    by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:48:30 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  A slight editing was needed (14+ / 0-)
      heard from men of my acquaintance how overwhelming the desire for sex [to feel dominant] is
      It's why rape of the opponents women is so common in war.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:23:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think they're scarily interrelated (4+ / 0-)

        Part of the issue of rape culture is that even consensual sex is read as an expression of dominance, and it prevents people from meaningfully distinguishing the two.  

        •  True some men feel dominant when they can (7+ / 0-)

          prove to other men how easily and how often they can seduce women. And some must keep proving it to themselves all their lives.

          Others, such as the Steubenville crew, attempt to prove dominance within their circle by drugging and raping underage girls. My reading is that what mattered most to them was to be congratulated by their friends for what they got away with.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:52:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Right (7+ / 0-)

            The means isn't necessarily important in the mindset - charm, force, manipulation, money.  The point is that sex is something to be taken from women, and succeeding proves something about you.

          •  It's much more. (9+ / 0-)

            In order to survive in a capitalist culture one must have supreme confidence over all obstacles.
            Corporations are dominated by sociopaths. Coaches of teams behave like sociopaths.
            It's up to parents to temper those cultural imperatives.
            Almost all of this is taught.
            I think most children want to get along and not dominate.

            I've tried to get responses to statements that people like the Koch's, Peterson's, de Vos', Coors' etc are sociopaths determined to conquer America and destroy democracy (which they see as a weakness).
            It seems as though any mention that people like Paul Ryan, Rand Paul etc. are sociopaths draws a complete blank. That legislators and billionaires intent on denying food to the hungry, medical care to the sick and willing to send Americans to die for their corporate greed are sociopaths willing to intentionally cause people to die for their profit, all the while smiling.
            Narcissistic sociopaths are the number one problem in America.  Good, caring people will never be able to keep up w/the destruction to our culture and fabric of society that these sociopaths revel in for the benefit of a few billionaires willing to pay people like McConnell and Ryan and etc.
            Cure the problem of sociopaths and all problems in America are manageable.  These are predominately republicans who are the sociopaths, but not exclusively, just mostly by far.
            But that conversation is not gonna happen.

            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

            by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:10:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are at least two reason you may draw a (3+ / 0-)

              blank.

              It's a medical term and people throw out medical terms without justification a lot.

              Labeling sociopaths as such doesn't suggest any way forward.

              Some notable Dem sociopaths were well beloved - John Edwards?

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 07:51:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Would 'truly insane' or mentally ill (5+ / 0-)

                be better phrasing to get people to realize that the distractions they throw at us aren't the real problem.  That tearing apart our social fabric is only a fortuitous (for them) distraction while they steal our labor and democracy?
                We keep reacting to their societal bombs and never to the source.
                We have to change the conversation to those who are directing this destruction.

                I understand what you mean by "doesn't suggest any way forward".  It's like injecting hitler into an argument.

                As an example, have President Obama, in a nationally televised speech during prime time say he is wasting his time talking w/Boehner, McConnell etc. and he wants to meet w/their masters, the Kochs, Petersons, Walton's, Coor's, de Vos's etc. and get to the real decision makers.
                But they are mentally ill and that is the real problem.

                And I don't see Edwards as being a sociopath. Sociopaths take peoples lives knowingly or unknowingly.  Edwards was an adulterer and an a..hole. But, politically he seemed to have the interests of the poor. What he did to his dear precious wife is unforgivable.

                And, thank you for responding to my sincere question.

                "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:22:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sometimes people just want to vent (4+ / 0-)

                  but you are spot on with this:

                  It's like injecting hitler into an argument.
                  What most people want/need is a nudge toward what they can do and why they might want to bother doing it right now.

                  Eg, with the new bank fees. Not everyone could afford to move their money, but enough did that it had an impact.

                  Eg, the recent Team 26 - Sandy Hook Ride on Washington. Most people couldn't drop their lives and go on a 400 mile bike ride. But enough people stepped up to support those 26 riders, (including yours truly) and they were able to attract national media coverage for their rolling rally from Newtown, CT to Washington, D.C.

                  Those 4 days, writing diaries that introduce the riders and their support crew were the best I've felt about gun safety reform in a long time. And the juice from that participation will keep me going for some time in the face of determined opposition.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:38:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks again. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    walkshills, cotterperson, dotdash2u

                    That's why I think by including it in most conversations about republican actions would be easy.  Just a comment saying these are the outcomes of such and such and action and only someone who is mentally ill would deny food or medicine,etc.  
                    Making it part of most conversations instead of ignoring what kind of a person(s) would do such things.

                    I sincerely believe we're dealing w/pervasive mental illness and afraid to talk about it.  There are no legitimate conservative arguments that would justify what they're doing to people.

                    "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                    by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:41:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes, but (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TrueBlueMajority, cotterperson

                      that's like saying devout religious people are delusional.

                      It may be true that they are, but most people with religious delusions are benign.

                      It steers the convo off course for at least two reasons:

                      1. People react to what appear to be a demonization or a slur instead of on actionable content.

                      2. No one is really qualified to diagnose someone at such length. You are probably right, but no one here has anyway of vetting your qualifications as a diagnostician. And if that were tolerated then other people start diagnosing Schizophrenia, or Bipolar, etc. it just create a mess and people just shout at each other.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:07:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't think it's difficult to characterize (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kaliope, cotterperson, dotdash2u

                        a billionaire like Pete Peterson who has spent half a billion dollars (through his scam Fix the Debt by way of Simpson-Bowles, Ed Rendell, etc) which is attempting to deny food to hungry children and medicine to the sick and when you look at Simpson laughing and calling poor people idiots while smiling all the way, as mentally ill. They have no legitimate position other than pure greed and malice. Identifying them as mentally ill would really define the conversation in a practical way.
                        But, I do understand what you are saying and of course you are unfortunately right.  But that doesn't mean I won't keep trying to push the point.

                        And yes, devout religious people are scary. I have some friends who are devout and I love them dearly, but they're nuts.

                        "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                        by BrianParker14 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:37:53 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Not sure about that. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          cotterperson

                          I think a lot of it is a need to feel better, superior, more deserving.  Our whole national dialogue is hugely about who "deserves" what (e.g. see Romney's 47%).  Such people, I suspect, often feel they're serving some sort of skewed code of justice--in a very self-serving way, of course.  

                          Some of them, I think, are perhaps less interested in hurting other people and more interested in validating, affirming, and justifying their ability and RIGHT to grab, to take, to do whatever the hell they want.  The two are not mutually exclusive, of course, but it's hubris, entitlement, and arrogance, at least sometimes, as much as it is sociopathic malice.

                          My take, anyway.

                          "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life." — Albert Schweitzer

                          by mozartssister on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 06:45:07 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  As you sigline says (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cotterperson, dotdash2u

                            "If a man loses his reverence for any part of life, he will lose his reverence for all of life."
                            I hear that as including "all life".
                            To be unconscious about the pain and suffering of others while still doing everything possible to take even  more from them seems to be a tenet of being a sociopath.
                            A definition:
                             Noun
                            A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
                            Sociopaths deserve anything they want w/o consideration of the pain it will cause others. How much more anti social must a person be than to intentionally destroy all social institutions that benefit people (especially the powerless). To be extremely wealthy, have control over legislators and require them to take from the neediest because they feel they "deserve" it, seems to be a definition of a sociopath, eg Kochs, Peterson's, Coors', Walton's etc.
                            My sigline:

                            "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                            by BrianParker14 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:12:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Your use of these terms is too loose IMO (0+ / 0-)

                      Being greedy and self-serving is not enough to call someone a "sociopath", in my book. And the selfishness that drives greed can be based on emotional problems, even spiritual problems--but calling any of this stuff "mental illness" just doesn't fit the consensual opinion in the mental health field. "Evil" is not a mental illness--it cheapens both terms to equate them, IMO.

                      •  Your analysis, IMO, seems to ignore (0+ / 0-)

                        the fact that I'm defining people who knowingly deny food and health care to the hungry and sick and send people to die, knowingly, for billion dollar corporations in unnecessary wars.  When a Paul Ryan or a Simpson-Bowles know that by eliminating food programs for the hungry and medical care for children and the sick who will die w/o it, that's a sociopath. And, they smile while doing it.
                        It doesn't even have to be for profit. It's done for the sole purpose of despising the weak and having the ability to take advantage of them, and if the outcome is likely death, so what. That's a sociopath. All while smiling.

                        These people know their actions will absolutely cause deaths. And they smile.  That's a sociopath. Malignant narcissistic sociopath. And intentional "evil" is a mental illness. If not, then there's no such thing as right and wrong, good and bad, it's all just relative.

                        An evil act may not be mental illness, but an evil person is.
                        Civilization has witnessed a society constructed by evil people. They were mentally ill.
                        If you believe all is relative then there really is no reason...

                        "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman

                        by BrianParker14 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 08:00:10 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think John Edwards a sociopath. (4+ / 0-)

                Immature, yeah. Needing something not illegal he wasn't otherwise finding in his life at the time, yeah. Not exactly the ideal father, yeah.

                Based on Elizabeth Edwards' final diary on this website, it appears she also did not consider her husband of many years a psychopath. She considered him immature.

    •  I think there is a range of urges for sex (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      political mutt

      from ,
      asexual , could not care ,
      would be nice ,
      really want ,
      dying for it ,
      out of touch with reality , willing to do anything rapist .

      Just as some people suffer from kleptomania , tourettes , obsessive-compulsive personality disorder , misogyny ...
      I think some people have problems with there urges for sex .
      Sex addicts that will do anything to get a "fix" , any risky behavior , any cost .  

      I'm not excusing what they do , its not like they are just abusing alcohol , their problem has a grotesque impact on others who obviously are not in any way at fault .
      I'm saying that asking the people who suffer from what I think sometimes with some people is a mental problem , is like asking a tourettes sufferer to just control themselves .

       

      Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

      by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 11:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In defense of sex addicts (13+ / 0-)

        Sex addiction definitely drives people to many risky behaviors. Rape is generally not one of them. And controlling the "urge' to rape is not equivalent to controlling tics or outbursts from Tourette's. Not at all equivalent.

        "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:01:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not so sure . (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          political mutt, dotdash2u
          And controlling the "urge' to rape is not equivalent to controlling tics or outbursts from Tourette's.
          Just as some can't control what insults fly out of their mouths when the suffer from Tourette's , just as some can't control their hands when the suffer from kleptomania , I think some people suffer from the same sort of mental problem when it comes to sex . I think the vast majority of people can control themselves re insults , thefts and sex , but that there is a small proportion who have real problems in these areas .

          A small proportion of thieves are sufferers of kleptomania
          who can't control their urge to steal .
          A small proportion of insulters are sufferers of Tourette's
          who can't control their urge to insult .
          A small proportion of rapists are sufferers of something
          who can't control their urges , imho .

          http://psychcentral.com/...

          What Is Sexual Addiction?
          By Michael Herkov, Ph.D

          Sexual addiction is best described as a progressive intimacy disorder characterized by compulsive sexual thoughts and acts. Like all addictions, its negative impact on the addict and on family members increases as the disorder progresses. Over time, the addict usually has to intensify the addictive behavior to achieve the same results.

          For some sex addicts, behavior does not progress beyond compulsive masturbation or the extensive use of pornography or phone or computer sex services. For others, addiction can involve illegal activities such as exhibitionism, voyeurism, obscene phone calls, child molestation or rape.

          For many, their problems are so severe that imprisonment is the only way to ensure society’s safety against them.

          Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

          by indycam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 12:31:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I mean (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Naniboujou, snowwoman, Catte Nappe

            Surely some rapists are compulsive beyond their ability to control themselves.  But I haven't seen any evidence that this represents a primary or even significant explanation for rapes in the United States.

            For the most part - including in the Steubenville case - rapists seem perfectly able to control their desires, and do not experience their offenses as a momentary lapse of control.  It would be odd that this team happened to have a group of individuals who are criminally insane, that were supported by their peers not as charity cases, but as morally correct.

      •  rape is not about sex. it's about power. /nt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        peptabysmal, snowwoman, dotdash2u
      •  One big difference---- (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Renee, Catte Nappe, TrueBlueMajority

        I have two students with Tourette's. They clearly cannot control their tics and display them throughout lesson time. However----a rapist will wait until the opportunity arises. If they really couldn't control their urges they would be raping in public, in front of police, etc.

        To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate--that is strength undefeatable. (Helen Keller)

        by kareylou on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 09:12:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Right. I agree, Catte Nappe. What debunkery (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tchrldy, Catte Nappe

      and where?

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