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View Diary: Dear bigoted lady I work with: (151 comments)

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  •  I would imagine (1+ / 0-)
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    samddobermann

    that a lot of white folks here are completely ignorant to how certain churches have deliberately set about to pit the LGBT community and the African American community against each other. I am, though, so I cringed as well.

    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

    by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 01:07:45 PM PDT

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    •  I am white folks... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      samddobermann

      and I will admit I am pretty ignorant. I just don't see what is cringe-worthy in ElsieElsie's argument.

      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

      by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 01:24:48 PM PDT

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      •  The whole point... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil

        ...of the diary is to shame a black person for daring to be a hypocrite. We saw a lot of this after the 2008 election due to Proposition 8. White people, and I am one, have a real history in the past two decades of latching on to the fact that black people are capable of being hypocrites.

        The problem I have with this is that white men and women want to focus so much on shaming black people for daring to be hypocrites, and yet we never, ever see diaries shaming white female racists for being hypocrites. Using the rationale for being outraged that black people would dare to be hypocrites while completely ignoring the fact that this would also mean that white women (that ALL women), who have a real history of oppression, should be shamed just as much annoys the crap out of me.

        As for what I wrote about the history of pitting the LGBT community and African American community against each other, there were reports that came out last year that showed that some churches were deliberately trying to stop the growing movement for gay rights by trying to deliberately pit black people against gay people, by putting out press releases that point out that some black people are also against gay rights. As if black people are more against gay rights than white people, which is just ridiculous.

        I am not against the diarist's argument per se. What made me cringe is seeing another instance in a long series of instances in which white people shame black people as if black people, out of any other subset, do not have the right to be hypocrites. That hypocrisy is reserved just for white people.

        Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

        by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 03:16:28 PM PDT

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        •  I do understand... (0+ / 0-)

          what you speak of especially regarding the Prop 8 nonsense. The argument while perhaps compelling wasn't true. It wasn't as if Black People sunk Prop 8. In the main I think that dubious award goes to the Mormon Church, who dropped so much out-of-state money in that campaign. My experience, as a White guy, is that the attitudes of Black People as a group are pretty reflective of U.S. society as a whole regarding Gay People in general.
          In this diary however we do have a slightly different situation. The diarist is addressing her co-worker, a White Woman who has married a Black Man, who is apparently unaware that a generation ago her marriage would have been the fodder for the fools to generate the hate.
          The other thing I think is important is the diarist didn't confront her co-worker with all this she is more concerned with her ability to get along at work than that.  All this open letter is, is her chance to vent about someone who is exercising the barely won right to her marriage now trying to pull the drawbridge up so others can not.

          This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

          by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 03:42:23 PM PDT

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          •  True (0+ / 0-)

            I certainly understand how necessary it becomes to be able to vent. And I also know that hypocrisy annoys me more than anything else.

            Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

            by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:00:26 PM PDT

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            •  Does it make a difference... (0+ / 0-)

              that the co-worker to whom this is addressed is white?

              This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

              by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:01:54 PM PDT

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              •  No (0+ / 0-)

                Because the diarist had to reach for her black spouse to show the hypocrisy rather than realizing that just her being a woman alone should make her a hypocrite.

                Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:07:21 PM PDT

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                •  To me... (0+ / 0-)

                  the black spouse compounds the hypocrisy. Like if I run into you with my car it's bad, but if I am drunk it is worse.

                  This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                  by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:10:44 PM PDT

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                  •  If it were framed that way... (0+ / 0-)

                    I would have had less problem with it. However, her gender was not part of the story. The diarist is positing that being married to a black man should give her insight, not her gender.

                    On the other hand, I have been wondering if it is because a lot of people do not actually visualize American woman as being oppressed, as having suffered severe oppression quite recently. Therefore, to understand oppression, you have to be a racial minority rather than a woman.

                    Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                    by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:16:06 PM PDT

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                    •  I don't want... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      samddobermann

                      to beat this poor horse into hamburger, but... I see your point about American women being oppressed, I even agree with you. You just seem to be willing to completely overlook the amazing similarity of the two situations and the closeness in time of the struggle. Until 1968 the woman in question would have faced a very similar legal situation as gay people do today yet she is willing to pull up the drawbridge for those behind. I think that is the point of the diary.

                      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                      by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:24:59 PM PDT

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                      •  And that's exactly it. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Tonedevil, samddobermann

                        This diary points out massive similarity in the situations just to object to the fact that race was brought up instead of gender.

                        People of all kinds can be hypocrites - this diary does not say otherwise. It points out the stunning similarities in this specific situation, and makes its point.

                        It is what it is - if the situation did not have the similarities it did, I would not be pointing them out.

                        Peace on Earth. Farewell to men.

                        by ElsieElsie on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:31:04 PM PDT

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                      •  I am not overlooking it (0+ / 0-)

                        I am also not surprised by it. I see hypocrites like this all the time. I also study history, so I have read about a ton of hypocrites. I am just tired of the narrative that black people have some special insight to oppression, much more than any other group, and therefore if you are a black person or related to one, then you are a worse hypocrite than usual for not wanting rights for gay people. History is full of certain people getting the right to do something then immediately pulling up the drawbridge behind them.

                        Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

                        by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:32:56 PM PDT

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                        •  I don't believe... (0+ / 0-)

                          any different information has been passed in the last couple of posts between us. At this point I don't have anything to say that I haven't said already. I don't understand your attitude toward the diarist or this diary. History being full of certain people getting the right to do something then immediately pulling up the drawbridge behind them is certainly true, but it doesn't make it OK and it still compounds the violation.

                          This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

                          by Tonedevil on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 04:55:36 PM PDT

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        •  mm76, this missive was aimed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          at a white person for her hypocrisy. No one was even thinking of "shaming" a black person.

          Little quick on the trigger there.

          I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

          by samddobermann on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 01:47:49 AM PDT

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    •  I am not ignorant of this fact. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, samddobermann

      I'm also not attacking her religion, or her race, or the race of the person she loves. I'm pointing out hypocrisy in justifying and promoting discrimination. I'm not seeing why that's cringeworthy.

      Peace on Earth. Farewell to men.

      by ElsieElsie on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 03:08:09 PM PDT

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      •  I just explained in another post (0+ / 0-)

        But to respond directly to you, in a vacuum, there is nothing wrong with your diary. However, we do not exist in a vacuum, and your diary is another in a very long series of instances of white people being outraged that black people in general are capable of being hypocrites. As I wrote, white people have a tendency to overlook the fact that white women should 100% be for gay rights because we definitely know what it feels like to be oppressed, yet, as you well know, many white women are completely against gay rights. It follows the narrative which seems to be that white people are allowed to be hypocrites without public shaming, but black people are not.

        Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

        by moviemeister76 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 03:24:30 PM PDT

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