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View Diary: A Pope Too Good To Be True (259 comments)

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  •  They love poverty (13+ / 0-)

    "How I would like a Church that is poor and for the poor,"

    The churches do all they can to promote policies that make and keep people poor. The more unstable your life situation the more likely you are to believe magic can help. That's because it can give people a belief they have some control by praying and because they don't see any practical way forward so they turn to the imaginary.

    •  Sigh. (7+ / 0-)
      The churches do all they can to promote policies that make and keep people poor.
      Just......sigh.

      The "broad brushing" of this statement is depressing.

      Shalom.

      "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

      by WineRev on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 06:48:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fine Brush It (4+ / 0-)

        OK, so explain how the Church lifts people out of poverty, and doesn't depend on poor people to function as it has for millennia.

        Sighing instead does what?

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 08:58:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does the schools where I teach ESL count? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenbell, 3goldens, rosarugosa

          St. Patrick's has been teaching children of poor immigrants for almost two centuries, and had been turning them into leaders of the community.

          So, how are things down at the Ayn Rand Memorial Soup Kitchen and Community Organizing Center?

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:54:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  "Depends on the poor" = "Food Stamp President" (4+ / 0-)

          Anyone whose mission depends on serving on the poor relies on there being poor people to have a mission.

          Every homeless shelter, food stamp office, and community development corporation "depends on the poor."

          Attacking the people who provide services to the poor on the ground that they provide services to the poor is morally perverse.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:59:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gerbara calls these "humanitarian" but also (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DocGonzo, ancblu

            calls for social justice in changing the structures which create poverty.

          •  Morally Perverse (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BYw

            If homeless shelters, food stamp offices and community development organizations all insisted on women having a child every time they had sex, they'd be equivalent to the Catholic Church.

            The Church does some work that helps some poor people out of poverty. It does a lot more that keeps them in poverty.

            For every Catholic ESL class for immigrants I'll show you a Mother Teresa. Talk about morally perverse.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 03:32:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you want to criticize social teaching, fine. (0+ / 0-)

              That really doesn't have anything to do with the services that the Catholics provide.

              And yes, your spin on Mother Theresa is, indeed, morally perverse.

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 04:05:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Brainwashed (0+ / 0-)

                Social teaching? I criticize a rich church that doesn't do what Jesus said: give away all its riches to feed the poor. I'm not talking about its "social teaching", except I guess the teaching that a gold encrusted pope and his minions are worth poor people sending whateve they can be talked into to prop it up.

                BTW: You could use some education about Mother Teresa. She's no saint.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 03:56:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, what about schools? Hospitals? Minimum wage? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          3goldens

          Atheist Forbid that people of faith provide education to the ignorant and illiterate!

          It's absolutely criminal that having arrived in Massachusetts Bay colony in 1620 a bunch of RADICAL religious types set up something called Harvard College in 1636, isn't it? Good thing that idea and especially that institution was nipped in the bud.

          How DARE all those priests and nuns go into ghetto neighborhoods filled with Irish immigrants in the 1870s and DARE to teach those children to read, write and cipher?
          (You were thinking of some OTHER types of ghettoes were you? Show me a dime's worth of difference between the way the Irish and the African Americans were treated from 1865 to 1900.)

          Look at the unmitigated GALL of the American Methodist Society of New York joining forces with the Boston Congregationalist and Unitarians and Pennsylvania Quakers to send teachers to Port Royal, South Carolina starting in 1862 to teach runaway slaves??!! At a time when the overwhelming political opinion among educated classes North and South as well as the heavy majority of scientific opinion of the time KNEW that African Americans did not have the capacity to learn.
               Those teachers had the nerve to teach reading, writing, mathematics, farming, commerce, history, and basic mechanical engineering to them! On the fantastic theory that A) these were people B) they COULD be taught C) they should be free and not slaves, D) should be emancipated (a political kiss of from 1840 to 1860) E) should be treated as citizens and be equal under the law (you know, the 14th Amendment?) and F) should vote (15th Amendment).
                Good grief, some of those Quakers stayed after the fighting ended, founded the Penn Center of St. Helena Island. They added teacher training a few years later so that hundreds of black teachers could go to work across the South and the US to teach black children (when no one else would). BTW the Penn Center lasted until 1979...not a bad run for a bunch of religious crazies....

          How many thousands of thousands of adults have escaped poverty and hopelessness due to the Catholic parochial schools that continue to operate in areas where the "public schools" just won't go, can't afford to go, or have just given up?

          Have you ever been treated at a "Methodist" hospital? Had outpatient treatment at St. Someone's clinic? I count lifting out of disease, pain, injury and suffering lifting out of poverty. What kind of religious cranks started those places 150 or 250 years ago?

          How DARE a nursing order of nuns start Le Hotel Dieu in Paris...in the 11th century, to care for (and if possible heal) the sick when otherwise they were left in the gutters to die?

          Care to argue with Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Rerum Novarum? From 1891! You know, the cornerstone for minimum wage legislation in the US?
              In 1906 Father John Ryan published the book "A Living Wage" wherein he writes:

          "As an abstract proposition, the State has both the right and the duty to compel all employers to pay a Living Wage.... its task is not merely to provide men with the opportunities that are absolutely essential to right living, but also to furnish as far as practicable the conditions of wider and fuller life."
          Source: The Atlantic, here

          There's more, much more. There are also Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, etc. etc. contributions to the catalog of human failings and shortcomings. BUT, to dismiss, broad brush and with a hiss and a chop of the hand

          The churches do all they can to promote policies that make and keep people poor.
          is indeed depressing, because it is so achingly one-sided and on so many points so reflexively hostile to people of faith.

          NO DOUBT, the Church through the centuries has MUCH to answer for, atone for, apologize for, live down. This is beyond dispute or question. I will concede this to any level you would care to name.
          BUT it is massively unfair and a vicious flight from reality to assert this is the entire story.

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 03:59:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  See You and Raise You (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Betty Clermont

            I'm glad you started out with the Puritans starting Harvard. Of course it did nothing to educate the poor for centuries, and recently has made a token effort compared to its work impoverishing so many.

            Yes, churches and religious people have done many things that have helped stabilize the poor from total destruction, and plenty of things that have also helped people out of poverty. Of course, most of what you cited weren't Catholic churches. But even the RC church has done some things to reduce poverty, not just sustain it.

            But how about forcing women to have a baby every time they have sex? That is responsible for more poverty than anything else - and they still insist on it.

            I did not assert it was the entire story. But the entire story shows a Catholic Church that feeds on the poor. How about all the money donated to Mother Teresa shoveled at the Vatican, while her poor charges who inspired the giving were kept in suffering because she thought it did them good? Money piled atop the hoards of Vatican gold stolen from entire empires conquered, genocided and robbed by popes, even as they fed and clothed poor people - but not nearly as well as they fed and clothed themselves.

            Go on all you like about the illustrious history of various churches helping the poor. I'll simply remind you that Jesus insisted his followers give everything they could bear to the poor, while the Vatican hoards wealth upon wealth as it ministers to hundreds of millions of people who will never own as much gold as encrusts the frame of a single painting in the pope's apartment.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 08:05:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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