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View Diary: Dear Conservative Christian Leaders: Why Are You Silent about Rape? (84 comments)

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  •  No. (0+ / 0-)

    The evil actions of the RCC and other thumper/fundie sects (Mormons incl.) are a detail in the whole argument of "religion is a delusion".

    In saying that "religion is a delusion", as I posted earlier, it only prepares the postulant to be skeptical with a Martin King, Fred Rogers, and even the "written" words of Jesus (goes without saying Paul is off my list).

    To be skeptical and to critically examine the claims of religion, literally testing what any minister, pastor, or archbishop of Rome says to see if it holds together against criticism.

    Nope. I'm right on the path with Epicurus, Lucretius, Buddha, Jesus, Rumi, Francis of Assisi, Gustavo Gutierrez, Jon Sobrino, Pablo Friere, etc.

    Meh. christianISTs.

    Ugh. --UB.

    "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

    by unclebucky on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:43:58 AM PDT

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    •  Here's the thing. (0+ / 0-)

      "Religion is a delusion" is a statement of fact.

      Agnostic atheists -- and indeed, anyone applying the rules of sound science -- understand that we cannot prove the nonexistence of God(s). We cannot demonstrate the existence of same, obviously, and thus the null hypothesis is in nonexistence. And thus, atheist.

      To say religion is a delusion, however, is to by implication make a definitive statement -- "God definitely does not exist" -- which you cannot support with evidence. (You cannot prove a negative, as they say.) So you cross the line from rational skepticism to your own brand of faith which you present with all the zeal of the christianISTs you decry.

      You become your own declared enemy. And all so you can insult people who believe in things which should not matter one whit to you.

      We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

      by raptavio on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 10:20:55 AM PDT

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      •  "God definitely does not exist" didn't say that. (0+ / 0-)

        Remember Gandhi's statement:

        "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

        That's the problem, you don't seem to separate the following:

        1. God (if exist)
        2. "sky-god" (did NOT exist, created by men)
        3. Jesus (did exist)
        4. Paul (unfortunately did exist)
        5. People of the Way (did exist)
        6. Catholics/Christians (exist but fading)
        7. RCC Clergy and murderers from Paul to 19th Century (exist but are increasingly irrelevant)
        8. ChristianISTs (the danger of the 21st Century)
        9. Dogma/Faith, the Bible, the Credo, etc.
        10. Secular Humanity, Science, Lucretius, etc.

        It is not a zero sum game, pal. Rather, one can have varying feelings for and against any of these topics, and more feeling for one does not necessarily mean less for the others.

        So, keep in mind, I tease about the "sky-god", but I am serious. If a person defines "God" in a text, image or sculpture, that is a graven image. And if one then worships that man-made (the Bible was written by men...) graven image, it's blasphemy. The Muslims offer the point, don't speculate about God, because this is something ultimately unknowable. Fine with me, so I don't worry about what a God likes or not, since if the Creator is of infinite wisdom, everything is good, but not perfect for a person in a particular time or place.

        It is RELIGION, the man made description of "God" that is the delusion, but given that a "Creator" of the Universe/Multiverse is unknowable, we cannot say that "God" is a delusion, only the crackpot religions that seek to define "God".

        IF these religions didn't matter a "whit" to me, I wouldn't bother. Problem is that these religions inveigle and interfere with my life and they at times have tried to control on the pain of death other people's lives. For that reason, I am loaded for bear, and I confront these delusions with sarcasm, mocking, and jokes, if only to wake some people UP!

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

        by unclebucky on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:26:56 PM PDT

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        •  No, you did not say that, (0+ / 0-)

          but to say "Religion is a delusion" is to proceed from the position that God definitely does not exist. Because religion can only be a delusion if God doesn't exist -- if He exists, then it is not delusional to believe in him.

          But now you've narrowed your scope (we call this a "backpedal") in that only those religions which try to define God are delusional. (Again, not true if their definitions prove to be correct, which again is an untestable hypothesis, so my point stands: You are asserting fact which is untestable.)

          And here's point three for you. Religions never inveigle, inveigh or interfere. A religion is an abstract. Only people can interfere in your life. And perhaps you should direct your focus to those practitioners of religion who cause you distress rather than to insult all practitioners of faith, whether they do or they don't.

          All you do with your mockery is show your own ass, and miss what should properly be your target -- the people who use their faith as an excuse to harangue secular people like us. In your "a pox on all their houses" approach, you alienate potential allies among the faithful and exemplify the very character traits which, when present in the religious, cause you such annoyance.

          We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

          by raptavio on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:55:06 PM PDT

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          •  No. Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

            Religion is what people make "about" God. Religion often makes a "sky-god" which people then think they can worship or praise, or leave fruit in front of. Religion is noxious. As far as God, there is no evidence, and so I leave my text littered with (if exist).

            God (may exist) ≠ sky-god (does not exist).

            Religion ≠ Universe, Multiverse & God (if exist).

            With regard to mockery, if the faithful are so thin-skinned as to see the mockery of an extreme idolatry having anything to do with them, well, tough cheese. If they are truly reflective and moderate, they will see that the barrel misses them by miles.

            Of course, here, we are talking about one aspect of this problem, the apparent blasphemy of sky-god punishers and Calvinist scolds. But I have more in my toolbox than this.

            There is a whole bunch of stuff I would rather promote than mocking blockheads who create/worship a graven image they "call" God.

            1. Lucretius really jibes with Jesus.
            2. Jesus, while not God, is like us, a Son of the Creator.
            3. Beatitudes, Parables, Lord's Prayer (up to but not incl. the "Doxology"), related passages, and the Letter of James are the "marching orders" that we should be about to build the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth (not religion, but sweat and aching backs).
            4. Emmaus Houses in various cities.
            5. Liberation Theology, by Gustavo Gutierrez
            6. No Salvation Outside of the Poor, by Jon Sobrino
            7. When my Great-great-great-grandparents were kids, there was less than 1 billion. When my Grandmother was a kid there was less than 2 billion. When my Mother and Dad were kids, there were 2 billion. When I was a kid, there were only 3 billion. Now there are 7.2 billion, and they think we can use technology to support 9 or even 12+ billion. Nonsense. Soylent Green is our future in that case, depend on it.
            8. 7 billion can't live like the average person in Arlington Heights, IL, and 12 billion won't. But if we try, we will deface the planet and exterminate everything but what we think is necessary (it turns out to be a monoculture). We must return to overall lower expectations and between 2-3 billion, it seems we can support no more.
            9. Music. My gosh, I could inundate you with music that is the most beautiful in the world, from all ethnicities.
            10. Poetry. Likewise.
            11. Language. We are losing many languages in the search for efficiency. When that happens, there goes the poetry, music, beauty and our souls.

            Nope. I WON'T give up bashing the stupidities of thumpers and fundies. If reasonable users of religion can't see the difference, I will educate them. But my tolerance of religion is thin, given the vein of death, destruction and sorrow that is caused by religion, on the whole.

            Believe what you want or nothing at all. I will not pander to "believers" who don't see how their tolerance of crazies like Westboro Baptist Church, Megachurches, and Personality-Based Cults. They need to be woken up.

            That's it, raptavio. Tolerate your enemy and he will stab you in the neck.

            Ugh. --UB.

            "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

            by unclebucky on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 04:53:44 PM PDT

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            •  Really... (0+ / 0-)

              So your evidence for this is?

              God (may exist) ≠ sky-god (does not exist).

              Religion ≠ Universe, Multiverse & God (if exist).

              You also try to redefine 'religion' to suit your argument.

              The remainder of your post is full of nonsequiturs and other fallacies which, frankly, serve only to provide a thin veneer of rationalization for what I have become convinced is nothing more than bigotry on your part.

              I really tire of arguing this with you... obviously you want to feel that sense of smug superiority about being secular while others believe in a (sky, earth, space, extradimensional, transubstantiated) god(s).

              Myself, I find people with confidence in their philosophy don't feel the need to put adherents of others down.

              More's the pity for you, because your claimed goals run counter to your tactics.

              This will be my last post on this matter.
              End of line.

              We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

              by raptavio on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:12:26 PM PDT

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              •  I had no inclination to "argue", but you... (0+ / 0-)

                are simply one of those who are "hair splitters" and not interested in finding ways to communicate.

                "last post" eh?

                Hehehe.

                Ugh. --UB.

                "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of East Somalia!"

                by unclebucky on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 02:07:01 AM PDT

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