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View Diary: The Iraq War wasn't the reason for the resurgent Left, Bush was (212 comments)

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  •  See how easy it is to put things in context (0+ / 0-)

    in retrospect?  Not so easy with a current administration, is it?

    Business doesn't distinguish between making money and taking money.

    by Troubadour on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:01:44 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  On the contrary. It's easy to put this (6+ / 0-)

      administration in context:  continuance of Bush era claims of unitary executive power, refusal to enforce the law with respect to torture, murder, financial fraud; persecution of whistle-blowers, continuation of mindless national security state.

      And Iran . . .  jesus-fucking-christ - Iran has never done anything to the US remotely as bad as what we have done to them.  With or without nukes, Iran is no threat to the United States of America.

      I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

      by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:07:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Again, name just one President (0+ / 0-)

        of the past 80 years who meets your standards.

        Business doesn't distinguish between making money and taking money.

        by Troubadour on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:28:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The closest would be . . . in order (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shahryar, shaharazade

          best to worst:

          FDR - did what he had to do
          JFK - started a hawk, learned better
          CARTER - good guy - screwed up Iran and Afghanistan and failed to arrest Reagan and Co for treason on Iran hostages
          EISENHOWER - another good guy - too bad about those Dulles boys - kept us out of war and out of SE Asia
          TRUMAN - almost passed health care, moved to integrate armed forces - let himself be bullied on using the A-bomb and NSA 1947
          LBJ - great domestically - tragic on 'Nam
          CLINTON - national security lapdog and that problem with his dick
          OBAMA previously discussed
          FORD - pardoned Nixon and Warren Commission coverup
          REAGAN - Iran-Contra and worse
          NIXON - treasonous on peace accord for 'Nam, Watergate,
          GHWBush - a bloody handed spook/Iran Contra
          W - pile of shit with not a single redeeming quality unless you like his painting

          I admit my standards are high - but we are advertised as the land of the free and the home of the brave.  And I don't give credence to the myth of American exceptionalism.

          I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

          by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 09:18:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  doesn't really address the issue, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Troubadour, bobdevo

            but rather compounds it with cherry-picking the records of a number of different Presidents.

            A:  FDR.  

            B+:  Truman, LBJ, Obama.  

            B: Eisenhower, JFK, Clinton

            C: Ford, Carter, Bush I

            D: Nixon

            F: Reagan, W.

            Obama's lacking the fatal flaws of LBJ or Truman, but he's been both too effective and progressive to fall into the next tier, but not enough results to vault one step up, for circumstances not entirely his own.

            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

            by Loge on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:07:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Obama over JFK? He prevented nuclear (0+ / 0-)

              war over Cuba, and he flatly turned down Allen Dulles' request for a pre-emptive strike on the Soviet Union.

              Obama has faced nothing of that level of danger to the planet.

              Obama over Eisenhower?  Again, Eisenhower created the interstate highway system, sent the 101st Airborn to integrate the schools, etc, etc.

              Obama has demonstrated no intestinal fortitude similar to that.

              And ranking LBJ that high means you have to ignore 6,000,000 bodies in SE Asia, after he was elected because I won't send American boys to fight a war Asian boys should be fighting.

              I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

              by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:37:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  well, Vietnam should have to count (0+ / 0-)

                for both JFK and LBJ.  And at the time of his death (which the Warren Commission got right, by the way), his entire legislative plan was stuck in Congress with no hope in sight.  That's why LBJ is so high, and he was a good manager of the domestic economy.  Truman also had greater highs (Marshall Plan, GI Bill), and lower lows (steel seizures as a form of streakbreaking in the name of national security, A-bomb).  One thing both Kennedy and Obama have in common is success in nuclear arms reduction and counter-proliferation, although you could argue some of JFK's early blunders precipitated the Cuban missile crisis.  The comment about Eisenhower and Little Rock illustrates how circumstances can make the President, but aside from some excellent Court appointments, Ike was late on those issues.  His main achievement was preserving the new deal under Republican rule, but he also got into much, much shadier foreign dealings than Obama (we're still paying for the Shah), as did Kennedy, and only opposed McCarthy when he went after the Army.  Basically, your list seems to rank Presidents based on a few pet issues (selectively applied) and general lack of familiarity with anything else.

                Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                by Loge on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:54:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Kennedy issued an executive order (0+ / 0-)

                  to get the troops OUT by the end of 1965.  If you find an example of Obama so defying the conventional wisdom AND the national security state, feel free to educate me.

                  I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

                  by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:58:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  in the context of committing more troops, (0+ / 0-)

                    the '65 date was ambiguous.  Yes, it said what it said, but Kennedy's actions show a willingness to get in deeper as long as there was some short-term progress.  It's more like the never-ending "next six months" re Iraq.  In most respects, Kennedy embraced the domino theory.  Obama, in fairness, had a similar time-table + more troops proposal for Afghanistan, which wasn't quite what the generals wanted, and I am operating on the assumption that he'll keep to it, having already drawn down one war already and already  killed bin Laden, our ostensible reason for being there.  (Obama also explicitly ran on promises to pay more attention to Afghanistan and launch strikes in Pakistan to kill OBL, so there is that.)  I rank Kennedy as with Clinton and Ike, as basically OK, because it's unfair to history to give him extra credit for failures avoided because of his (purely random) death, as it would be to give him credit for LBJ's legislative success, after Kennedy used Johnson much less skillfully than Obama's used Biden.

                    Defiance of either the CW of "national security state" isn't an end itself, and it's rather devoid of content.  The same actions can be deference or defiance, depending on how you approach the question.  In terms of results, I'm happy with Obama's record, and I think many criticisms are overwrought and simplistic.

                    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                    by Loge on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 12:25:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Suggest you read JFK and the Unspeakable (0+ / 0-)

                      for a full look at what JFK was prepared to do in Vietnam.

                      And Kennedy's death was not random; it was predicated upon his defiance to the national security establishment.

                      I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

                      by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 01:52:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  well, two problems with that (0+ / 0-)

                        1.) Kennedy was shot by a mentally unstable communist acting alone.

                        2.) As Senators, both Bobby and Teddy supported the war in public until after Tet.  Very few people had better insights into Jack's thinking than Bobby.

                        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                        by Loge on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 02:29:07 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oswald was a CIA asset. (0+ / 0-)

                          And whoever killed Kennedy did not act alone.  Again, you need to update your sources.  The JFK conspiracy theory is no longer a conspiracy theory.

                          I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

                          by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:01:04 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It is a conspiracy theory, (0+ / 0-)

                            Just one you happen to believe.  And even if that were true, his record was such that the CIA/Rothschilds/mafia at least overreacted.

                            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                            by Loge on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:08:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  You sure have a lot of excuses (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IM

            for a President who interned an entire race of people in concentration camps, a President who radically increased the number of nuclear weapons and whose administration was integral in plotting the Vietnam War, a President who trained the Shah's secret police in torture and was the first to arm (one might even say, create) the Taliban, and the President who actually conspired to start US involvement in the Vietnam War.   You describe these as mere mistakes, errors, necessities, and "tragedies," but nowhere is your pompously judgmental tone as in condemning Barack Obama for not reversing 80 years of foreign policy that these other Presidents were responsible for constructing.

            Business doesn't distinguish between making money and taking money.

            by Troubadour on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:37:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You sure have a lot of (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              DarthMeow504

              shit between your ears, you self-righteous apologist.

              Roosevelt had to face the depression and WWII, in which the very survival of democracy was quite literally as issue.

              Eisenhower did (permit) the training of SAVAK.  But that was a misadventure of the Dulles boys, and at least he warned us on his way out.

              Carter did create the Taliban - and I noted that.

              Create your own rankings if you wish - suck down a full pitcher of Kool Aid and have a good time.

              I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

              by bobdevo on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:33:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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