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View Diary: Pat Robertson explains why people in Africa can raise the dead (158 comments)

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  •  It seems if we are to respect all people, which (6+ / 0-)

    includes people who belong to a faith, people who are not sure there is a higher power and people who believe there is no higher power, we start by not denigrating the belief of others. One can criticize Pat Robertson without attacking every Christian on the planet.

    Your verbal attack on all Christians make you seem just as intolerant as Conservatives who attack none Christians and other individuals who don't believe as they do and subscribe to their way of life.

    We can't point the finger at their hatred and intolerance when we do the same. Despite your seeming belief that you have a higher developed inteligence over all Christians.

    •  I will not be silent any longer (2+ / 0-)
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      devis1, Cliss

      Religion continues to do far too much harm to society. I will not stand and be silent any longer while others enact harmful policies based on their primitive, superstitious beliefs. I'm not intolerant. Religionists have been given a free pass for far too long. Anyone that dares speak out against religious idiocy is immediately persecuted and socially pressured to remain silent. I'm done with that. If your beliefs are too weak to stand up to my challenges then maybe it isn't me that's the problem.

      +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

      by cybersaur on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 05:30:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not pressuring you to remain silent (2+ / 0-)
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        Batya the Toon, aitchdee

        Go ahead and show your ignorance, hatred, and hysterical anti-scientific, anti-data venting to the world. It looks exactly as good on you as it does on the Ted Nugents, Glen Becks, and Ann Coulters, and be assured I have just as much respect for your capacity for rational thought and explication as I have for theirs.

        Handsome is as handsome does. Strut that stuff, come on work it!


        by raincrow on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 05:50:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You will not be silent in attacking every (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Batya the Toon, Praxical, aitchdee

        individual of the Christian faith because members of the Christian faith have done intolerant things, an eye for an eye as they say.

        I should point out to you that there have been many Christians in the past who have fought and marched for the Rights of others. There are many today that are Christians who are fighting and standing up to other Christians for the rights of others.

        You stated that Christians have instituted harmful policies against other individuals, I totally agree, but there are non-Christians who also have instituted harmful policies against individuals.

        Let's take power from those individuals that cause harm, be they Christians, non-Christians, lawyer, doctor, or politician chief, but to use the deeds of some Christians in order to engender feelings of intolerance or hate of perhaps 2.1 billion individuals on the planet? Hmmm...Good luck....

        •  It isn't just the christians (1+ / 0-)
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          I expanded my comments to include all primitive superstitious belief.
          I don't argue that some religious people do good things, but on the whole, religion is more harmful to society than beneficial. We've evolved beyond whatever usefulness religion may have served in the past. People need to see the world as it really is so we can solve the issues before us. When critical masses of people regularly stand in the way of progress in the name of religion and imagined fantasies that have no actual bearing on reality, religion needs to be set aside for the good of humanity.

          +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

          by cybersaur on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:11:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is called a faith. Faith is the belief quite (1+ / 0-)
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            frequently in things unseen.

            I know you imagine it to be silly that individuals believe in an unseen God, but accept the proposition that many have found solace and even peace in such beliefs and who am I or you to say that they are silly for believing as they do?

            I don't think, for as much as we want to believe in our infallibility, that we know all there is to know about our place in the universe.

            Still, far be it for me to say that you are wrong in not believing in a higher power. You have all right in a free society, and I respect and defend your right, just as much as I defend the rights of individuals who describe being moved spiritually through their personal faith.

            As William Shakespeare once wrote:

            There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
            I think we are moving toward a society and a world where an individual will be respected despite his belief or his way of life. Think how great a future that will be.
            •  Ah, yes faith! The crutch of the ignorant (0+ / 0-)
              It is called a faith. Faith is the belief quite frequently in things unseen.
              How is that at all different from delusion?
              Faith- belief in the face of no evidence whatsoever.
              That's probably the weakest foundation one could ever base their worldview on.
              "I have no evidence for any of this, but I believe it anyway!"
              Why don't you have faith in Zeus, Vishnu, Shiva, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Allah, Yahweh, Ra, Isis, Lakshmi, Danu or Bahlam? Maybe it is because your faith was impressed upon you by your culture and you never challenged those assertions?

              +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

              by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:10:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It is their faith and they are entitled to it. You (0+ / 0-)

                seem to be subscribing to the tea party notion of debate. I don't like their faith so they are all ignoramuses.... Just like the tea party your philosophy won't get very far. Again, good luck being hateful to more than 2 billion folk.

                •  Entitled to believe anything (0+ / 0-)

                  Nice strawman arguments there.
                  My disagreement with people of faith is based wholly on evidence and reason. You have offered no evidence and no reason for anyone to believe in your faith. That is because there is none. You can keep calling me names though, since that's all you've got!
                  And just because 2 billion people believe something does not make it true. The Truth exists well outside of the beliefs of any number of people.
                  Why do you believe what you do? What evidence and reason can you offer others to believe those things?

                  +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                  by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:35:21 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You have evidence and reason that God does not (0+ / 0-)

                    exist.... How incredibly smart you are.

                    A world full of theologians and scientists and scholars have looked at this question and none can say with absolute certainty, and without challenge, that there isn't a God, but you in your divine wisdom and knowledge of all things in the universe have ferreted out the answer. And can unequivocally say that God does not exist because......?

                    You want to answer that question, knock yourself out, but make sure that the answer isn't a faulty one, for if it is you would have effectively called yourself "the names".

                    •  Which gods? (0+ / 0-)

                      Just keep on asserting things I never said.
                      The positive claim that there is a god is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It is incumbent on the person making the positive claim to provide the evidence. There is no need to disprove the existence of any given god, and there have been many throughout history, just as there is no need to disprove the existence on pink unicorns. It is the person making such claims that needs to show proof.
                      Everything we know about the universe points to completely natural causes. There is nothing that requires one to posit the existence of a supernatural realm and supernatural beings. Nothing.
                      People have defined their gods in such a way as to make it impossible to disprove. They have imbued their gods with qualities that can never be ascertained.
                      Why is it that you believe in your god, but discount the existence of others just as I do? Is there an answer other than "that is the culture I grew up in"? That is the sole reason most people hold the religious beliefs that they do.
                      The only difference between me and you is that I believe in one less god than you do. For the same reasons you don't believe in all the others! Because they don't exist.

                      +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                      by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:28:43 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  See, you are projecting here. You are projecting (0+ / 0-)

                        your behavior and motives onto me.

                        I have never made it my crusade to declare that those who believe in Gods are wrong or idiotic. No.... You have done this.

                        I am willing to respect the beliefs of all individuals, you are not.

                        I am able to be tolerant and live in peace with my fellowman regardless of his belief, as long as he respects mine and not issue blanket screeds at everyone of a certain group because of the behavior of some members of said group.

                        You, on the other hand, are prepared to issue hate-filled rants at people whom you don't agree with. Using as your argument that you know that God does not exist and they are ignoramuses for believing he does.

                        I have to say, you don't sound very progressive. Stop projecting the individual that you are onto me....

                        For all your lambasting at others who practice a desired faith as idiots, you don't seem to be able to answer a simple question for which you claim to have the answer to.   I didn't think you could. Still, I think we've said all that needs to be said here.

                        •  It's simple, really (0+ / 0-)

                          When you understand why you do not believe in others' gods, you will understand why I do not believe in yours.

                          +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                          by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:06:45 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  You sound like the right-wingers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        claiming persecution when people call them bigots.

        "Only fools believe such utter nonsense" isn't a brave iconoclastic challenge; it's a petty insult.  You insult people, you're gonna get called on it.

        You criticize the people enacting harmful policies based on their beliefs all you want, and I'm in your corner on that one, I've got your back a hundred percent.  You step up and proclaim that religion has no place in law and needs to back the hell off, and I'll be seconding you every step of the way.

        You tell people that they're idiots for being religious, you're a jerk.

        •  That's fine (1+ / 0-)
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          I don't mind being challenged. And atheists are most certainly a persecuted group. I'm having to think about whether or not I want to fight to get the Ten Commandments removed from the local courthouse. The thing that is holding me back are the death threats and the persecution that will most certainly come with such an action.
          And I fully understand that people don't like being called fools. Instead of complaining about people calling them fools, maybe they ought to consider ending belief in foolish things. Imaginary sky fairies belong at the top of that list.

          +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

          by cybersaur on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:17:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Being persecuted doesn't make you right, you know. (1+ / 0-)
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            Factually or morally.

            Speaking of foolish things to believe.  A belief you share with a whole big lot of right-wing religionists, I might add.

            •  I never suggested as much (0+ / 0-)

              Being persecuted has no direct connection with the veracity of any given claim and I never suggested anything of the sort.
              What makes one "right" is holding beliefs that match up with reality. I'd say that separates me from a whole big lot of right-wing religionists.
              I can defend my beliefs because they're based on facts, evidence and the world I observe around me. Religion is based on none of that.
              Religious people believe what they do primarily because that is the culture they are brought up in. Most people cannot even name the major world religions. How they can claim to know the one true god is beyond me.

              +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

              by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 07:17:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sure you can defend your beliefs (0+ / 0-)

                but that doesn't excuse your behavior.

                I'm not trying to persuade you that any religion has the right of it.  I'm trying to point out that calling large groups of people stupid is a jerk move even if it's true.

                There's a big difference between saying "this statement you have made is not supported by fact," or even saying "this statement you have made is provably false," and saying "you are an idiot."

                •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm not going to disagree with you that the way I've stated things leaves a lot to be desired. Any challenge to religious belief is often considered an attack and impolite to those that hold those beliefs. Religionists always want to burn the heretic, but are generally incapable of rationally addressing the claims of the heretic. An expected reaction when the challenged belief system is wholly indefensible.

                  +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                  by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 09:41:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm going to say this one more time: (0+ / 0-)

                    Talking about how religious people react to challenges to their beliefs is completely irrelevant here.  "You're all stupid" is not a rational challenge to anyone's beliefs.  It's a schoolyard insult.

                    I can appreciate how frustration with intransigent fundamentalists can make one want to resort to insults; if everybody reacts to your every rational comment with something like OMG UR BEIN MEAN STOP ATTACKIN MEEE, there isn't much benefit in staying rational instead of going on the direct attack.  And when you're talking to somebody else instead of those flailing fundamentalists, it's even more tempting to just vent about how stupid you think they are.

                    Here's what you need to remember: when you talk here at DK about Christians in particular or religious people in general, you are not talking about some nebulous not-here Them.  You are talking about some of your fellow progressives who are reading this, and I guarantee none of us want to burn you.

                    •  Yes, religious belief is pervasive (0+ / 0-)

                      What is a better term for people that believe in magic?
                      Born of a virgin = magic!
                      Rising from the dead = magic!
                      Sin = magic!
                      An eternal god = magic!
                      Turning water into wine = magic!
                      Parting the Red Sea = magic!
                      Creating the Earth in six days = magic!
                      Souls = magic! (ghosts?)
                      The Tower of Babel = magic!
                      Talking serpent = magic!

                      People that believe magic is real = ?

                      +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                      by cybersaur on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 10:38:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ... nope, still not interested in burning you (0+ / 0-)

                        although I am developing an unaccountable urge to knock briskly on your head to get your attention.

                        People that believe in any or all of those things = PEOPLE.  You do not actually need to call them anything.


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