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View Diary: Sanity breaks out on Fox:  Megan Kelly holds NRA LaPierre to Account (98 comments)

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  •  No evidence?! Do your own experiment, Wayne. (19+ / 0-)

    An experienced shooter can probably change a magazine in 5 seconds or so, most people even more. An AR-15 can get off 15 rounds per second. With a 5-second exchange, that's a minimum 75 bullets that would not be shot in those 5 seconds if the shooter had to swap magazines after 10 rounds. No evidence?! GMAFB. Adam Lanza fired 154 rounds. He would've had to make more than 15 magazine changes with a 10-round limit. Imagine the children who could've escaped in those 75+ seconds, the rounds that would not have been shot, the adults who could've tackled him. No evidence?!

    stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

    by Mother Mags on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:26:14 PM PDT

    •  10 lethal shots (7+ / 0-)

      should be enough

      for any real-world scenario these "home defenders" might find themselves in.


      Now their "Zombie Apocalypse" scenarios might require more,
      but even in such an imaginary-world, you always run out of bullets,
      eventually.


      Thanks Mother Mags, for doing that grim math.

      •  10 lethal shots for the 'real world'? (0+ / 0-)

        three police shot an armed robber 15 times out of 40 or so shots.  They stopped shooting when round 12 or so severed his spinal cord and he rag-dolled, thus no longer a threat.

        Suspect later died at the hospital!!!  None of those hits were immediately lethal.

        Three cops (assumed to be familiar with firearms and well-trained, by laymen), 40 or so rounds, 15 hits at a range of less then 10 feet or so.  And you want to limit folks to 10 'lethal' shots?

        10 lethal shots from an AR-15 in a life/death scenario is about, a 30 round magazine.  Don't believe me?  Ask your favorite combat veteran.

        A 'real world' defensive shooting scenario does not involve tiny children.

        •  I watched (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, Mathazar

          some slow-motion you-tubes, the other day,

          showing in impactful detail,

          how 1 on-target bullet -- utterly obliterates,

          nearly every Media it happens to strike.


          Are you suggesting itmbabm,

          that the robber needed larger clips?


          The case you cite sounds like "abuse of power" by the police,
          ie  illegal and atypical.

          •  the robber had a steak knife (0+ / 0-)
            Are you suggesting itmbabm,

            that the robber needed larger clips?

            knives have neither clips or magazines, so that questions is irrelevant.

            Law Enforcement shooting somebody who runs at them with a knife is not an abuse of power.  Law Enforcement "Blocking the Door" preventing the perp from having a clear path of escape is not an abuse of power.  The poor kid simply shouldn't' have ran :(

            More data from the BATF via NYTimes explaing why a 28% hit rate isn't unexpected.

            •  the police (4+ / 0-)

              should have stopped shooting,

              once the "threat" was halted.


              Heat of the moment "Over-kill" scenarios should meet with the full weight of the law.

              Trigger-happy-cops are no longer "serving and protecting,"
              imo.  And most likely legally speaking too.

              •  Define 'halting' when you think somebody is trying (0+ / 0-)

                to kill you.

                I'll tell you what the military/police/personal defense standard is... when the target no longer presents a threat.

                If you're moving, you're still a threat. They kept shooting (as they can) until they feel the target isn't a threat.

                This "overkill" you speak of.  Police are justified in the use of deadly force if they believe their or a 3rd party's life is in danger.  Officer one felt his life was in danger and opened fire.  Officers two and three saw officer one shoot and, believing his life in danger, also opened fire.

                Its really easy to armchair quarterback somebody else from the relative safety of your keyboard.

                •  Define 'halting': (3+ / 0-)

                  when the knife wielding threat,
                  is down and in a surrender posture.


                  I know all about the "escalation of force" theory. I used to teach it.

                  I used to work in a law-enforcement capacity, in a very large urban mall (West Hollywood).  Through much of my 20's

                  But, we were armed with only our wits, our clubs, and our radios.

                  Since I was a supervisor, I saw more than my share of "hot-head" officers,
                  who were in for the adrenaline power rush,
                  more so than protecting the public.

                  Those guys were usually "bad news" if they couldn't be reeled in with training.
                  They almost always -- seen themselves as somehow "being above the law."

          •  regarding that 'one on-target hit' (0+ / 0-)

            utterly obliterating everything in it's path...

            Yeah, every soldier, cop, and enthusiast likes to believe we are capable of those, at close range, when both the target and shooter are in motion.  Reality is a different story.

            If firearms really stopped people like they do in action movies, we'd never have had this discussion in the first place.

            •  so (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber, Mathazar

              would you support any limit

              on magazine size?


              How much is enough?

              you suggested 30 or 40 earlier.

              •  Instead of an arbitrary number (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jamess

                How about something more akin to standard per the design?  For example, most defensive guns carried by LEOs hold between 11 and 19.  The FN-57 which is both popular with govt agencies and has a lot of technical aspects that are superior for defensive use comes standard (IIRC) 20 rounds, and as we know the AR comes standard at 30.  So in other words, design standard is fine, but enhanced, extra large capacity is nixed?

                My line of thinking is that this takes it out of the political and arbitrary realm of conflict and puts it back in the hands of the designers, who presumably had a reason for their choice.

              •  The truth? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jamess

                a 30 round magazine is standard, not high capacity, for an AR-15.  Anything bigger tends to jam, which makes it a range toy.  Anything bigger is also heavier then the magazine catch in the receiver is designed for, so in short, you're speeding up how fast you wear out parts in your rifle.

                The 100/200 round drums you see are expensive, unreliable, and tend to cause excessive wear.  For a "good guy", this is a bad thing.

                The Colorado shooter used a drum on his AR-15 and it jammed about 30 rounds into his rampage.  Had he used 30 round magazines, he wouldn't have had to go to his shotgun and pistols, and probably woudl have killed more people.  His super-sized magazine ended up hampering him.

                jared loughner was stopped when his extended capacity (33 round) glock magazine jamed/was awkward to reload/easy to grab because it sticks out so much.  Another example of a super-sized magazine hindering the nutcase.

                On one hand, if there was some kind of 'contract' whereby aftermarket extended magazines over 10 rounds were banned (10 round 1911 magazines have a role in competition shooting), standard capacity magazines were always legal, and somehow there was a binding promise that gun control was now and forever a dead issue, I may go along with it.  Extended magazines are useless IMO, but counterproductive to the nutcases.

                But the gun control crowd is never satisfied,  the honest ones (DK contributers included) admit that the endgame is no more private ownership of firearms, and everything short of that is simply baby steps.  Also those aforementioned extended magazines ironically hurt the crazies who wielded them more then they helped.  If Loughner  didn't jam and successfully reloaded, more peopel would have been hurt/killed.  If the Colorado shooter used standard 30 round magazines, he could have kept using his rifle.

            •  I heard of an AK-15 that made the bodies of (6+ / 0-)

              20 five year olds unrecognizable to their parents. That's the reality I can't seem to shake.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:00:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  but . . . but . . . I thought the defensive gun (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jamess, Urizen, Mathazar, mamamedusa

              owners were all super-ninjas who coulda dropped any of those mass shooters in their tracks if only they'da been there with their Glocks.

              And now you're telling me that defensive gun shooters can't hit the broad side of a battleship unless they spray and pray . . . .

              •  That old strawman again? (0+ / 0-)
                but . . . but . . . I thought the defensive gun

                owners were all super-ninjas who coulda dropped any of those mass shooters in their tracks if only they'da been there with their Glocks.

                Ironically, though, recently one carry permit holder did just that... with, wait for it, his glock!
                •  Goddamn. You've got almost no diaries here, mostly (0+ / 0-)

                  offensive comments, and practically no public support (outside of RKBA)!

                  Are you sure that you're even on the RIGHT (or left, in the case of Dkos) blog?

                  There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                  by oldpotsmuggler on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 09:29:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  where to begin... (0+ / 0-)
                    Goddamn. You've got almost no diaries here, mostly (0+ / 0-)
                    offensive comments
                    Please show me an offensive comment I've made.  Hint:  countering a popular opinion with facts backed by links isn't offensive simply because you don't agree.
                    and practically no public support (outside of RKBA)
                     Ergo, my position is unpopular, so I'm simply wrong or need to be shouted down?

                    I spend a lot of time highlighting Illinois gun laws and promoting their passage nationwide.  A lot of DK contributors say they want to do something about gun violence, by which they mean a ban.  I don't agree and yes, there's going to be a difference of opinion.

                    You may or may not have noticed, I tend to post a lot of links supporting my position.  Follow them, debunk them, prove me wrong.

                    Are you sure that you're even on the RIGHT (or left, in the case of Dkos) blog?
                    I'm a pro-gun, pro-choice, pro-equality, pro-union, pro-legalization democrat from Illinois.  Which other blog are you suggesting?
                •  give us a weekly diary series, then, like the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jamess

                  weekly gun deaths, that show us all these wonderful successful gun-defense uses that you claim must be going on.

                  Should be several hundred a week, right?

                  Get cracking . . . .

                  •  Another contributor has that gig. (0+ / 0-)

                    Maybe I can do a weekly diary on a national foid card, because, thats what I advocate?

                    It's a simple concept though, I wouldn't get past two weeks of Illinois foid card history and material, but we'll see how it goes.
                     

                    •  yeah, um-I heard that gig didn't work out too well (0+ / 0-)

                      (snicker)

                      Alas, it sounds to me as if you are just as much in love with the whole revolution-porn gun thingie as the Bircher kooks are.

                      Some "revolutionaries" never learn the simple lesson that picking up guns is the FINAL step, not the first. Before that comes years or decades of boring-ass drudge organizing work--the kind of stuff that the revolution-porn fans don't like to be bothered with.  (sigh)

        •  a quick question . . . . (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jamess, Mathazar, mamamedusa
          10 lethal shots from an AR-15 in a life/death scenario is about, a 30 round magazine.
          What happens to the other 20 rounds?  Where do they go?
        •  Wayne LaPierre says that ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jamess

          ... you can reload a magazine in no time, so you can keep the deathsticks with the three 10-round magazines next to your bed instead of one 30-round magazine. Or, maybe you can tape two of the 10-round magazines together so that you can change it faster, in the cool Commando way.

          Or, you can sit and watch as more people shoot up Americans and themselves in blood-orgies of mass death involving innocents and children with obnoxiously huge magazines.

          If you are not at least as well trained as the police in shooting a weapon, why the hell would you have it in your home? Your home!  

          Sorry, that's just insane. Please turn in your guns. Think of the future.

          I would tip you, but the man took away my tips.

          by Tortmaster on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:42:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree Jamess about 10 clips (7+ / 0-)

        It seems the NRA is controlling everything IMO
        Is this   The United States of the National Rifle Association?
        Are we  paying taxes to the gun lobbyists?
        What hold do they have against even their own membership?  there is much going on at Capitol Hill that simply eludes me...

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 04:18:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Way less than five seconds (3+ / 0-)

      Personal experience there, and I was never an expert.

      Also a little confused about being able to pull a trigger fifteen times a second.

      It seems like a very small advantage for the good guys to have. On the other hand, a lot can happen in a couple of seconds: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      My emotional side cringes that our policy response to massacres is to rely on interrupting them for a few seconds at a time.

      Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:43:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My experience is personal too, and I'll stick with (0+ / 0-)

        5 seconds. If you're on the shooting range or in one of those magazine swapping contests, sure, people will do it in a second or two, but walking through a school or dark theater, with clips in your pocket or ammo belt, not so much. Magazines fall out of your hands, they jam, and you get nervous as shit. For the 15 rounds/second figure I'm assuming the fully auto version.

        stay together / learn the flowers / go light - Gary Snyder

        by Mother Mags on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:25:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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