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View Diary: Staggering U.S. Firearm Facts (63 comments)

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  •  Troubling that locations with highest % Dems, have (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Utahrd

    Highest homicide rate.
    http://www.theatlanticcities.com/...

    The pattern is staggering. A number of U.S. cities have gun
    homicide rates in line with the most deadly nations in the world.
    If it were a country, New Orleans (with a rate 62.1 gun murders per 100,000 people) would rank second in the world.
    Detroit's gun homicide rate (35.9) is just a bit less than El Salvador (39.9).
    Baltimore's rate (29.If it were a country, New Orleans (with a rate 62.1 gun murders per 100,000 people) would rank second in the world.
    Detroit's gun homicide rate (35.9) is just a bit less than El Salvador (39.9).
    Baltimore's rate (29.7) is not too far off that of Guatemala (34.8).
    Gun murder in Newark (25.4) and Miami (23.7) is comparable to Colombia (27.1).
    Washington D.C. (19) has a higher rate of gun homicide than Brazil (18.1).
    Atlanta's rate (17.2) is about the same as South Africa (17).
    Cleveland (17.4) has a higher rate than the Dominican Republic (16.3).
    Gun murder in Buffalo (16.5) is similar to Panama (16.2).
    Houston's rate (12.9) is slightly higher than Ecuador's (12.7).
    Gun homicide in Chicago (11.6) is similar to Guyana (11.5).
    Phoenix's rate (10.6) is slightly higher than Mexico (10).
    Los Angeles (9.2) is comparable to the Philippines (8.9).
    Boston rate (6.2) is higher than Nicaragua (5.9).
    New York, where gun murders have declined to just four per 100,000, is still higher than Argentina (3).
    Even the cities with the lowest homicide rates by American standards, like San Jose and Austin, compare to Albania and Cambodia respectively.

    "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

    by Kvetchnrelease on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 03:02:05 PM PDT

    •  Not sure what point you are trying to make. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      second gen, Miggles, Smoh, wader, gramofsam1

      Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

      by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 03:12:36 PM PDT

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      •  I am. nt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mookins, Smoh, JoanMar

        I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

        by second gen on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 03:58:09 PM PDT

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      •  These cities have most restrictive gun laws (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Utahrd, noway2, theatre goon

        Because they are predominately democratic havens, yet they remain vulnerable to gun violence.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 06:25:05 PM PDT

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        •  Primarily because the guns are (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          looseleaf, Kevskos, gramofsam1, WakeUpNeo

          imported from states and cities with less restrictive gun laws.
          Just look at what's happening in Chicago, Illinois.

          http://www.nytimes.com/...

          Chicago is seen as having some of the most restrictive gun ordinances in the country. Gun shops are banned, and no civilian gun ranges exist. There is a ban on both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. But more than 15,000 of the guns traced by the police came from just outside the city limits in Cook County and in neighboring towns that permit gun stores.
          Didn't think there would be any mystery there.

          Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

          by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 06:57:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But if the guns are being imported from other (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Utahrd, noway2, theatre goon

            places that have less restricted gun laws....why don't those places are have an extremely high rate of gun violence too?

            In other words, if Chicago's rates are higher than any where else around them....and it is only because the guns are being imported....why isn't the other places as high or higher than Chicago?

            •  You couple the availability of guns (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kevskos, WakeUpNeo

              with lack of jobs for parents and teenagers, schools in disrepair, rundown neighborhoods, drugs (again coming from outside) and general hopelessness and you get cities like Chicago.
              I would like to hear your explanation.

              Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

              by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 07:26:22 PM PDT

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              •  What do you mean by this: (0+ / 0-)
                I would like to hear your explanation.
                •  Why do you think there is more violence (0+ / 0-)

                  in urban areas than in suburban and rural areas?

                  Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                  by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 07:36:33 PM PDT

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                  •  Same reasons you said....but that was not the (5+ / 0-)

                    implications stated above.  It is obvious that having strict gun laws has not helped Chicago curb its gun violence. So naturally the next thing that is brought up is "well it is because guns are being imported".....ummmm no.  Otherwise, you would find the same explosion in other places that do not have strict gun laws but are importing guns to Chicago....if the correlation was indeed due to the laws to begin with.

                    Strict gun laws do not hinder criminal behavior because criminals don't obey the law.  Strict gun laws hinder the law abiding gun owner's right to own one...because they do obey the law.

                    •  Indeed (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon, Utahrd

                      Places have crime problems because of social, economic, and cultural issues.  The response is to pass gun restrictions in the hopes of reducing the crime.  It doesn't work, so the restrictions get worse until full scale bans are in place.  And yet the crime remains.

                      Giving a gun to a law abiding citizens does not cause more crime.  Taking guns away from criminals does not reduce crime.  The idea that more guns equals more crime is false.  Criminals are criminals regardless and are so because of factors other than a gun.

                    •  faulty argument (0+ / 0-)

                      You're ignoring population density.

                      Correct for that and your argument evaporates.

                      •  So you believe that strict gun laws hinder (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Utahrd

                        criminal behavior?  Do gang members suddenly drop their weapons because they are now banned? The answer is no they do not. Why would they as generally they are already banned from owning them in the first place....if they are felons and/or too young and/or drug users.

                        Have you ever considered the fact that in places in which they have strict gun laws, that the general population (those who are law abiding and thus choose not to have a weapon to protect themselves....because to do so would make them a criminal) have no means to protect themselves and so you find a higher rate of robberies, muggings and/or home invasions in which they are victims involved and not just property? Chicago has the phenomenon.

                         I wonder if crime might go down in these areas if all of a sudden, guns were more prevalent in the hands of the law abiding. Perhaps the criminals would second guess the decision to pick any home on the block...when they are unaware if the occupants were armed or not.

                        •  Thank you, LaPierre! (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JMcDonald
                          I wonder if crime might go down in these areas if all of a sudden, guns were more prevalent in the hands of the law abiding. Perhaps the criminals would second guess the decision to pick any home on the block...when they are unaware if the occupants were armed or not.
                          •  Is there any way you could just answer the (0+ / 0-)

                            questions?  It is a discussion, is it not?

                             Do you believe that strict gun laws hinder criminal behavior?  That is the purpose of all the debates, all the discussions and the reasons behind every new law....is it not? So each new law should, at the very least, have some general purpose toward that goal and/ or some kind of rational backing that would support that goal.

                        •  yes, gang violence will drop (0+ / 0-)

                          if you actually control weapons.

                          Other nations also have inner-city gangs, but their homicide rate is a fraction of ours.

                          But to get to real control, we need a permeant national gun registry, thorough background checks (including family members), strict liability (every gun and every bullet ALWAYS has someone liable for it), and stiff penalties (5+ years in prison) for things like straw-man purchases.

                          Do that, and gang violence will become vastly lower.

                        •  you don't need to wonder (0+ / 0-)

                          Correcting for everything else, homes with guns have double the homicide rate, a dozen times the suicide rate.

                          More legal guns => more dead people

                      •  Hawaii must be dangerous (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Bailey2001

                        New Hampshire, too.

                        "states like VT and ID are not 'real america'" -icemilkcoffee

                        by Utahrd on Sun Apr 07, 2013 at 09:07:24 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  Lets immagine for a moment... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Utahrd, noway2, theatre goon

              All guns in the US disappear into the sky by way of the gun rapture magnet.  Firearms murder rates plummet, however, given that we can't keep drugs out (see also Prohibition and the current war on drugs) will also let guns leak back in.  The difference is that the distribution channels would be the exact same as the ones used by the licit drug trade.  We would be worse off than before as the supply chain would be controlled by organized crime.  

              •  Expanding upon this thought (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon

                "Firearms murder rates plummet, however," overall murder rates remain because the murders use other weapons, or even their hands.

                •  That is to say (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  theatre goon, noway2

                  Criminal misuse of firearms would dramatically push up negative externalities and we would have a war on guns.  

                  Don't get me wrong, if you feel better being beaten to death than shot to death in a home invasion or robbery gone wrong, it is a victory.  

                  We would also see the strong dominate the physically weak.  Women who leave abusive relationships would be less able to defend themselves against there abuser should he go looking for her.  

                  An armed society may or may not be a polite society, but its also one where self defense does not require being built like a viking.  

            •  population density (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WakeUpNeo, dconrad

              If you look at just two factors, population density (especially of 15-30 year old males) and gun possession rate, you can pretty much predict the gun homicide rate.

    •  I'm not sure Cambodia has accurate statistics (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wader, Kevskos, Be Skeptical, theatre goon

      Mostly everyone just does what Hun Sen tells them to do. If you want high or low statistics he will give them to you, or maybe not.

      They sure have a lot of guns. Martinis the popular nightclub used to make people check their guns before entering. I think most homicides are unreported. Who would you report them to?

      Denver is 5.6 as I remember. Maybe we do something right here.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 03:35:37 PM PDT

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    •  Say What ? (4+ / 0-)

      http://www.statemaster.com/...

      # 1         District of Columbia:     31.2     
      # 2         Alaska:     20     
      # 3         Louisiana:     19.5     
      # 4         Wyoming:     18.8    
      # 5         Arizona:     18     
      = 6         Nevada:     17.3

      Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

      by indycam on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 03:58:05 PM PDT

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    •  Common cause (10+ / 0-)

      No, not the organization. Rather, these correlations have a common cause.

      Concentration of Democrats is not causing violence, nor is the violence causing people to vote Democratic.

      The areas you highlight, places like Detroit (which you list twice, presumably because we're so special), Baltimore (which you also list twice, getting it cut-n-pasted up with New Orleans), L.A., Washington D.C., and so on, all have high concentrations of poor people and, out of desperation, high levels of drug trafficking.

      Because there are a lot of poor and working class people in these places, they tend to vote Democratic, because they aren't stupid and can clearly see which party is interested in helping the working man and which party is more interested in cutting aid in the middle of an economic downturn.

      But, because these are also places plagued by poverty and drug trafficking, they have high rates of violence, particularly including gun violence.

      Can you think of any ways to address these problems?

      It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so. — Will Rogers

      by dconrad on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 04:02:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Elephant in the room (7+ / 0-)

      Many of these cities are democratic because of a low non-hispanic white population.  For instance Houston, which voted for Obama and has democratic representatives, is 25% non-hispanic white and 23% black.  In fact the murder rate is probably now closer to 10 in 100,000, on line with other major cities in the state and similar to other major cities in the country.

      But here is what is not included in this analysis.  Many states seem to pack black people into these cities and them let them kill each other.  For instance Detroit has 6 times the black population as Michigan in general, and 8 times the murder rate.  Newark has three times the black population and eight times the murder rate of New Jersey.  St. Louis has 4 times the black population and 5 times the murder rate of Missouri in general.

      But other places, like Texas show how one can not have a segregated community and keep the crime rate down as well.  Texas has a murder rate that is average for the country, and the big city rate is only about twice the average, which is not atypical.  Many, states, particularly nothern, just do not seem be able to get a handle on this murder, or even, rape thing.

      But here is the alarming thing to me.  Gun Violence requires guns.  And who manufacturers guns.  Well, of course the Freedom Group(Bushmaster) in North Carolina does, but who else.  Smith and Wesson of Massachusetts, Ruger of Connecticut, and Colt of Connecticut.  In fact Colt developed and pushed for the sale of the civilian AR-15 and owns the trademark.  Combined with the no-gun-control in vermont and the insistance of the NRA that straw purchases cannot be effectively tracked, and we have the current situation.  In which guns are sent to these cities and used to kill children.

      We could stop it with good laws, but the Connecticut pushes huge funds to the NRA which prevents even current laws from being enforced.

      It is a pretty story that somehow big cities or minorities are causing the high gun crime rate.  But it is not true.  It is do not have the moral fiber to know that selling weapons of mas destruction is not a legitimate means to make a profit.

    •  Urban areas (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Klusterpuck, dadoodaman, Smoh, Gooserock

      tend to have lots of Democrats and crime.

      What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

      by Words In Action on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 04:26:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Democrats Dominate in Many Cities Because Poor (6+ / 0-)

      and working poor people tend to vote Democratic. Because they need to.

      It's not troubling, it's almost obvious.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 05:34:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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