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View Diary: Staggering U.S. Firearm Facts (63 comments)

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  •  Primarily because the guns are (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    looseleaf, Kevskos, gramofsam1, WakeUpNeo

    imported from states and cities with less restrictive gun laws.
    Just look at what's happening in Chicago, Illinois.

    http://www.nytimes.com/...

    Chicago is seen as having some of the most restrictive gun ordinances in the country. Gun shops are banned, and no civilian gun ranges exist. There is a ban on both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. But more than 15,000 of the guns traced by the police came from just outside the city limits in Cook County and in neighboring towns that permit gun stores.
    Didn't think there would be any mystery there.

    Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

    by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 06:57:29 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  But if the guns are being imported from other (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Utahrd, noway2, theatre goon

      places that have less restricted gun laws....why don't those places are have an extremely high rate of gun violence too?

      In other words, if Chicago's rates are higher than any where else around them....and it is only because the guns are being imported....why isn't the other places as high or higher than Chicago?

      •  You couple the availability of guns (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos, WakeUpNeo

        with lack of jobs for parents and teenagers, schools in disrepair, rundown neighborhoods, drugs (again coming from outside) and general hopelessness and you get cities like Chicago.
        I would like to hear your explanation.

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 07:26:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What do you mean by this: (0+ / 0-)
          I would like to hear your explanation.
          •  Why do you think there is more violence (0+ / 0-)

            in urban areas than in suburban and rural areas?

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 07:36:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same reasons you said....but that was not the (5+ / 0-)

              implications stated above.  It is obvious that having strict gun laws has not helped Chicago curb its gun violence. So naturally the next thing that is brought up is "well it is because guns are being imported".....ummmm no.  Otherwise, you would find the same explosion in other places that do not have strict gun laws but are importing guns to Chicago....if the correlation was indeed due to the laws to begin with.

              Strict gun laws do not hinder criminal behavior because criminals don't obey the law.  Strict gun laws hinder the law abiding gun owner's right to own one...because they do obey the law.

              •  Indeed (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                theatre goon, Utahrd

                Places have crime problems because of social, economic, and cultural issues.  The response is to pass gun restrictions in the hopes of reducing the crime.  It doesn't work, so the restrictions get worse until full scale bans are in place.  And yet the crime remains.

                Giving a gun to a law abiding citizens does not cause more crime.  Taking guns away from criminals does not reduce crime.  The idea that more guns equals more crime is false.  Criminals are criminals regardless and are so because of factors other than a gun.

              •  faulty argument (0+ / 0-)

                You're ignoring population density.

                Correct for that and your argument evaporates.

                •  So you believe that strict gun laws hinder (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Utahrd

                  criminal behavior?  Do gang members suddenly drop their weapons because they are now banned? The answer is no they do not. Why would they as generally they are already banned from owning them in the first place....if they are felons and/or too young and/or drug users.

                  Have you ever considered the fact that in places in which they have strict gun laws, that the general population (those who are law abiding and thus choose not to have a weapon to protect themselves....because to do so would make them a criminal) have no means to protect themselves and so you find a higher rate of robberies, muggings and/or home invasions in which they are victims involved and not just property? Chicago has the phenomenon.

                   I wonder if crime might go down in these areas if all of a sudden, guns were more prevalent in the hands of the law abiding. Perhaps the criminals would second guess the decision to pick any home on the block...when they are unaware if the occupants were armed or not.

                  •  Thank you, LaPierre! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JMcDonald
                    I wonder if crime might go down in these areas if all of a sudden, guns were more prevalent in the hands of the law abiding. Perhaps the criminals would second guess the decision to pick any home on the block...when they are unaware if the occupants were armed or not.
                    •  Is there any way you could just answer the (0+ / 0-)

                      questions?  It is a discussion, is it not?

                       Do you believe that strict gun laws hinder criminal behavior?  That is the purpose of all the debates, all the discussions and the reasons behind every new law....is it not? So each new law should, at the very least, have some general purpose toward that goal and/ or some kind of rational backing that would support that goal.

                  •  yes, gang violence will drop (0+ / 0-)

                    if you actually control weapons.

                    Other nations also have inner-city gangs, but their homicide rate is a fraction of ours.

                    But to get to real control, we need a permeant national gun registry, thorough background checks (including family members), strict liability (every gun and every bullet ALWAYS has someone liable for it), and stiff penalties (5+ years in prison) for things like straw-man purchases.

                    Do that, and gang violence will become vastly lower.

                  •  you don't need to wonder (0+ / 0-)

                    Correcting for everything else, homes with guns have double the homicide rate, a dozen times the suicide rate.

                    More legal guns => more dead people

                •  Hawaii must be dangerous (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Bailey2001

                  New Hampshire, too.

                  "states like VT and ID are not 'real america'" -icemilkcoffee

                  by Utahrd on Sun Apr 07, 2013 at 09:07:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Lets immagine for a moment... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Utahrd, noway2, theatre goon

        All guns in the US disappear into the sky by way of the gun rapture magnet.  Firearms murder rates plummet, however, given that we can't keep drugs out (see also Prohibition and the current war on drugs) will also let guns leak back in.  The difference is that the distribution channels would be the exact same as the ones used by the licit drug trade.  We would be worse off than before as the supply chain would be controlled by organized crime.  

        •  Expanding upon this thought (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon

          "Firearms murder rates plummet, however," overall murder rates remain because the murders use other weapons, or even their hands.

          •  That is to say (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon, noway2

            Criminal misuse of firearms would dramatically push up negative externalities and we would have a war on guns.  

            Don't get me wrong, if you feel better being beaten to death than shot to death in a home invasion or robbery gone wrong, it is a victory.  

            We would also see the strong dominate the physically weak.  Women who leave abusive relationships would be less able to defend themselves against there abuser should he go looking for her.  

            An armed society may or may not be a polite society, but its also one where self defense does not require being built like a viking.  

      •  population density (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WakeUpNeo, dconrad

        If you look at just two factors, population density (especially of 15-30 year old males) and gun possession rate, you can pretty much predict the gun homicide rate.

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