Skip to main content

View Diary: The Ongoing War on Christianity (172 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Let's think about the thrust of my argument... (0+ / 0-)

    I could go back historically and argue about so many of the things you sight and more; from the inquisition to crusades and so on.

    But the thrust of my argument is that in the last ten years, we are on an upswing that works the other direction; not churches who do terrible things in the name of their god; that has gone on since the beginning of almost all faiths.   In this case, in the last ten years, we have politicians who are posing and guiding faiths in an effort to establish policy.

    Has this gone on before?   Yes, absolutely, the roots of the KKK and so on.   But in the last ten years, we are back on an upswing that mirrors those events, that's all.

    You cannot say "things are pure" at any point with any organization, any organization that involves people.  All you can do is look at the upside and downside of each group and the impact they have on our country.

    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

    by Chris Reeves on Sun Apr 07, 2013 at 05:30:38 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  If you are only talking about short-term trends (0+ / 0-)

      then sure, I agree: the last ten years have been in the wrong direction. Although, honestly, it's more like the last twenty or thirty that things have been going that direction; it's just that its so much easier to see now (or rather, so much harder to not see).

      But that leaves open the obvious rebuttal: perhaps the direction you want it to go in is itself a short-term trend.

      The entire thrust of my post (and of JoesephK47's post above) is that you are operating off of an assumption about what religion is supposed to be like, but have not provided any compelling evidence for that assumption. On the other hand, history has provided us with a lot of evidence against it.

      Maybe you're just wrong. Maybe religion can't help but be about tribal identity, moral judgment, ostracism, and conformity. Maybe that's what religion really is, and the nice bits you like are actually the abnormalities.

      How would you know? What test/observation/evidence would distinguish between the two cases?

      •  All we can ever ask for (0+ / 0-)

        Is a series of short trends that help shape youth who will either embrace philosophies without the rigors of a doctrine.

        Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

        by Chris Reeves on Mon Apr 08, 2013 at 07:35:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We can ask for more (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tmservo433

          Instead of spending all our time climbing up or down a steep hill, we can move to another hill.

          The treatment of black people in America went up and down in short term trends, and still does. However, the abolition of slavery rather dramatically changed the underlying median of that treatment.

          In the same way I am suggesting that religion, as a construct, may not be what you think it is. If you were living in the antebellum South, you might be agitating for better treatment of slaves, such as letting them read the Bible; but it might never occur to you that abolishing the peculiar institution would be such a sea-change as to drown all your current concerns.

          Free your mind: consider a world without any religion at all. Consider a world in which knowledge derives solely from empirical experiments that anyone can replicate; in which authority is earned solely by measurable results; in which tradition is only a guideline, to be trumped by innovation whenever it can; in which great care is taken to remove all possible bias, going so far as to blindfold the judge and jury in every trial.

          Would such a world suffer the problems of authoritarianism and tribal affiliation that you are struggling against?

          Because, you know, that world already exists: it's called science. I submit that if you replaced your epistemological paradigm of revealed knowledge with one of derived knowledge, all of the problems you are struggling with would be vastly diminished, like making molehills out of mountains.

          Or, to use another metaphor: putting out that fire would be a lot easier if there wasn't a hole in your bucket.

          •  Slight difference (0+ / 0-)

            You are preaching to a choir on one point, I have said here, and in many forums that I am an atheist.

            That having been said, I am not speaking on Kos about this as a religious forum, but as a political realities forum.

            You can fight for the spread of atheism, and that's fine, I wish you great luck with it, but in the meantime, we need to win elections and take back issues.   And part of that is putting the opposition to the issues we care about on the defense by pointing out the foolishness of their claims.

            So, while I get your argument, we will have to agree to disagree about the realities of how that mixes with politics and how we succeed at the ballot box ;)

            Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

            by Chris Reeves on Mon Apr 08, 2013 at 09:41:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I had no clue (0+ / 0-)

              Really, I garnered not a single clue from this entire exchange that you were an atheist.

              Nonetheless, I would submit that it is possible to strive for less harmful religions while recognizing that all religion is necessarily harmful. I did not get that sense from your writing.

              Which makes me uncomfortable; it is all well and good to push your opinion, but if it's not perfectly clear where you're coming from, it seems a bit sleazy. When I concern-troll religious folks, I make sure they know I'm an atheist first.

              •  My apologies (0+ / 0-)

                I've been here for.. well, since 2004, and I've posted repeatedly about being an atheist in my diaries; I also noted in one of the very first comments in this diary that I was an atheist, right off the bat.

                That having been said, I grew up Catholic, most of my friends & family are Catholic, and I often write about the life of a lapsed Catholic, including summaries of the potential popes/etc.

                It's not so much a concern troll factor as: this is the kind of church I had as a small kid, I left for reasons of science, but the good I saw in the church as a youth is being eaten away by lunatics who are taking to the pulpits ;)

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 04:01:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  I think this started in earnest around 1970-1980. (0+ / 0-)

      Otherwise good diary.

      "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." -- JC, Matthew 6:24

      by Chi on Mon Apr 08, 2013 at 04:25:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site