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View Diary: The Ongoing War on Christianity (172 comments)

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  •  Put differently, the issue is (0+ / 0-)

    one of what sorts of reasons can produce consensus or be shared between people.  Arguments based on religion can't produce consensus because there's no way of verifying their truth.  One believes them or does not, endorses an interpretation or does not.  There's no independent validation.  The experience of European warfare that arose out of rival sects of Christianity was a big part of the motivation for calling for the separation of Church and State.  The idea that Church and State should be separated wasn't merely the idea that religion should be a personal affair, but that the sorts of arguments we give for various forms of legislation should be based on reason and the observable or what can be shared between people that otherwise have radically different beliefs.

    •  Consensus is achieved by people consenting, (0+ / 0-)

      not truth.

      ...that the sorts of arguments we give for various forms of legislation should be based on reason and the observable or what can be shared between people that otherwise have radically different beliefs.
      That is false.

      The separation of Church and state was primarily to preserve the choice to make one's political arguments on the religion of their choice, local religious consensus or non religious merits as each person sees fit. Although in most cases in the American states, even well after the Constitution was ratified, public officials where required to proclaim faith in God rather specifically and explicitly. Just read a state constitutions of the time.

      It is a total divergence from reality and a corruption of the principle to say the separation of church and state was designed to subdue individual religious expression, in politics or otherwise. It's outrageous really to even suggest that. It was in fact the opposite. To preserve and protect individual religious expression as opposed to the state forcing anyone to base their arguments and expression on any particular religious or non religious doctrine.

      Where did you get that idea?

      You can try to make a science of morality, it's been tried. And it ain't pretty.

      •  I never made the claim (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fisheye

        that the purpose of church and state is to subdue religion.  I made the claim that this separation arose out of the experience of internecine warfare in Europe that arose out of conflicts between different sects of Christianity (notice, there's no reference to atheism inn that remark).  The decision was made to treat religion as a private affair outside of governance to avoid this sort of warfare.

        •  I infered that separating reason from (0+ / 0-)

          religion implied atheistic perspective. Godless at least. That is what you mean isn't it?

          These reasons must be reasons that anyone, regardless of religious belief or cultural background, could know for themselves.  Only two types of reasons fit that criteria:  reasons derived from reason (as in the case of mathematics)...

          I think what is happening as we speak in the court and public opinion can be too easily conflated with historic realities.

          The moral baselines you established in your first response to me are assumed.

          John Locke wrote two treaties. Is it just a coincidence his attempts through both religious and criteria based observable reason met the same conclusions. Probably not. Because people work backward from their baseline morality. How could he have come to any other conclusions than the universe, God and observable reality, doesn't contradict itself?

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