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  •  Unless Of Course You Already KNOW You Will (0+ / 0-)

    Not get anything, and you are putting out a proposal for other reasons, such as, political positioning going into a mid-term election.

    Goals are important.

    If the goal is NOT a deal from the proposal, but rather POSITIONING and DYNAMICS related to the upcoming election, then your not worried about what you can get out of negotiations as far as a deal is concerned, but what you can get out of them as far as positioning for the election.

    The strategy has yet to play out, but you've already decided it's failed.  My pointing that out is not a personal attack. But if you want to take it that way, that's your perogative.

    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

    by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 11:37:28 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well, if political positioning for going (3+ / 0-)

      into the 2014 midterm elections was the intent, he has been successful...in providing Republicans with excellent material to use against Democrats.

      But you'll likely say that that was the end goal -- to create a problem that didn't need to be created for the sole purpose of providing congressional Democrats something to defy a Democratic president on. This of course would require congressional Dem's to be in on the plan.

      In other words, used as a tactic for political positioning, by its very nature, it is destined be a failure for Democrats, and a success for Republicans.

      Please provide the scenario you predict will occur that justifies the inclusion of chained CPI.

      So far, as it appears to me, it looks like a contortionist playing chess with himself. On purpose.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 01:10:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What Material Against Dems? (0+ / 0-)

        Is this a Dem proposal? Or Obama proposal?

        If Dems come out strongly in support of protecting SS and GOP comes out supporting cuts (which is what they are actually now doing and what this diary is about), how do they have anything to use against Dems?

        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

        by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 01:15:38 PM PDT

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        •  The fact that Pelosi (0+ / 0-)

          is on board with this indicates to me that her arm was severely twisted by the President. With Pelosi and Reid and the President behind it, how do you imagine the Democratic Party can be strongly against it?

          I can't see Pelosi agreeing with this except under extreme pressure from the White House. That's how much he is determined to do this.

          We decided to move the center farther to the right by starting the whole debate from a far-right position to begin with. - Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay

          by denise b on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 02:30:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Pelosi And Reid Are Behind It? (0+ / 0-)

            So they are sponsoring and supporting legislation in the House and Senate?

            When did that happen?

            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

            by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 02:37:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They have made statements (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              denise b

              About it to the press, saying that they are ok with chained CPI.

              •  So You Admit They Have Not Backed Actual (0+ / 0-)

                Legislation in either chamber?

                So, tell me again how they support it. With links. Thanks.

                And then tell me how this impacts 18 months from now.

                This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 06:16:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm on my phome (0+ / 0-)

                  And don't have a way to give links. Theyve said they are pk with it though.

                  •  Hello! (0+ / 0-)

                    And that translates into....? What? Legislation and policy? Via...underwear gnomes?

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 06:32:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you seem to think ypu have a point (0+ / 0-)

                      They are in the media saying they are ok with chained cpi and the president proposed chained cpi. Thus, the democrats support cutting chained cpi in many viters minds.  You don't have the gotcha you thinkyou have here, and your spinning is pathetic.

                      •  You Seem To Think Your Focus On Minutiae Prevails (0+ / 0-)

                        It doesn't.

                        18 months from now, in local congressional districts across the country, if Dem rep A is running on protecting SS, and GOP loony rep B is running on whatever the fuck he's somehow cobbling together...Who YOU gonna vote for?

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 06:40:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  You don't have to back actual legislation (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  denise b, DeadHead

                  to take a position. In Political Science there is even a special term for it. It's called position taking. Imagine that!

                  •  I'll Say This Again, Because It's Cool and Pithy: (0+ / 0-)
                    You Seem To Think Your Focus On Minutiae Prevails (0+ / 0-)
                    It doesn't.

                    18 months from now, in local congressional districts across the country, if Dem rep A is running on protecting SS, and GOP loony rep B is running on whatever the fuck he's somehow cobbling together...Who YOU gonna vote for?

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 06:45:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  You seemed to indicate in a post above that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead

          you know a lot about politics and the rest of us don't. Well if you knew a lot about politics you would know how useless it is to run against your own President. It is a complicated message and voters, unfortunately, simply cannot stand complicated messages.

          •  You Now Give Me A Third Opportunity (0+ / 0-)

            To repost a comment I'm somewhat proud of. I thank you for that opportunity, sir or madam!

            You Seem To Think Your Focus On Minutiae Prevails (0+ / 0-)
            It doesn't.
            18 months from now, in local congressional districts across the country, if Dem rep A is running on protecting SS, and GOP loony rep B is running on whatever the fuck he's somehow cobbling together...Who YOU gonna vote for?

            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

            by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 06:47:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What a joke. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DeadHead

              You seem to keep on repeating that thinking it makes you look like you know what you're talking about. All it shows is that when confronted with a true debate you actually have nothing to say. How about being brave and actually try to respond to my critique when position taking stops and governing starts. You say he's taking this position to get folks elected, so that he can then pursue more progressive policies. Well, where are they? He did that shit all throughout his first term and now its time for the second part of your strategy to kick in, the part  he can actually enact the policies he wants, and yet he keeps on pushing this Republican bs and you keep saying he's still taking positions so that Democrats can win future elections and pursue progressive policies. I'd love to hear your response to that but it seems like you can't come up with one. Sleep on it and get back to me?

              •  I'm Still Waiting For Internal Consistency From U (0+ / 0-)

                I suppose I shall continue to wait.

                This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 07:44:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                  •  Not Really, We're Disagreeing On Tactics (0+ / 0-)

                    At this point.

                    You've conceded the main point that it's all about local politics.

                    This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                    by Beetwasher on Tue Apr 16, 2013 at 07:54:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What are you talking about? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      DeadHead

                      We've been disagreeing about tactics the whole time, from the beginning, not at this point. And you still haven't even attempted to respond to my critique of your view of tactics. As far as local politics goes, that's cute, but I conceded no such thing. Far from it. Today, all politics is national. We see it in the HUGE decline in split-ticket voting and the debates in congressional races being dominated by national issues. I appreciate that you conceded that Obama has placed democratic candidates in house races at great risk by his actions. Now that we know and agree what (one of) the risks is, can you explain to me what the tactical benefit is? You said that Obama's image doesn't matter. It seems like it would be a lot easier and smarter for democratic congressional candidates to be in tune with their President proclaiming the same message. So the fact that you've said Obama's image doesn't matter kind of takes electoral positioning out of the list of potential benefits of this action. Do you mean to say the advantage is not electoral positioning but positioning for negotiations with the GOP? I would be amazed by that, because you always start out a negotiation asking for way more than what you want and what you know you're going to get, hoping that when the negotiation is finished you will have been negotiated down to what you really wanted all along or a happy middle ground with a slight advantage to your side. If your claim is that this is Obama positioning for the negotiations, that implies that he thinks he's never going to get ONLY chained CPI, and save the rest of the program, but that he expects to have to submit to many more cuts than just chained CPI. That's what people are on about.  If you ever get around to responding to my critique of your tactics, let me know. In the mean time, I'll continue to observe the never-ending positioning and wait for the point when positioning to win an election stops and promoting the policies you ran on begins. Maybe it happens when you die and go the afterlife or something, I don't know. I do know that we've been "positioning" since Bill Clinton and instead of expanding our social safety net we are fighting a defensive battle to try and prevent it from being dismantled.

                      •  Glad To See You Agree Its Tactics! (0+ / 0-)

                        Now you have to work on actually understanding the idea that perhaps Obama's tactics don't make sense to you because you seem to think his overrall strategic goal, towards which those tactics are being applied, is not negotiating an actual deal, but maximizing leverage for Dems in '14.

                        And yes, there's.always.risk to any strategy and tactical maneuvering.  That's life.

                        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                        by Beetwasher on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 05:05:34 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Ok, so you think this is part of positioning for (0+ / 0-)

                          the deal. Well, I now have no further reason for talking to you, because you are just as clueless about negotiations as he is.

                          •  This still stands (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you mean to say the advantage is not electoral positioning but positioning for negotiations with the GOP? I would be amazed by that, because you always start out a negotiation asking for way more than what you want and what you know you're going to get, hoping that when the negotiation is finished you will have been negotiated down to what you really wanted all along or a happy middle ground with a slight advantage to your side. If your claim is that this is Obama positioning for the negotiations, that implies that he thinks he's never going to get ONLY chained CPI, and save the rest of the program, but that he expects to have to submit to many more cuts than just chained CPI. That's what people are on about.  

                          •  I'll Place My Bets On The Political Acumen of The (0+ / 0-)

                            Guy sitting in the Oval office, as opposed to some clown in the peanut gallery.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 06:46:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's So Funny That You Think You Know More (0+ / 0-)

                            About negotiations and political positioning than the President of the US.  ROFL! You're cute!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 06:45:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  He has politically positioned himself (0+ / 0-)

      to see massive decreases in Democratic turnout in 2014. Is that the kind of positioning you were talking about. By the way, those people who won't show up to vote in 2014, they are in the right. They are not obligated to vote against their policy positions, their values, or their interests. If Democrats act like Republicans, then no, its not worse to let Republicans take control of the government. How's this for some political positioning... Since you seem to think showing yourself to be uber moderate makes the Republicans look bad, how about all us Democrats just stay home in 2014, and 2016, and several elections after, allowing the Republican Party to dominate the government. Then they will of course pursue their extremists policies and look bad, real bad. Then the public will beg for the Democrats back. Sound like a plan? Because it seems to be the same mechanism that you're talking about, only taken to greater levels. I act like a wishy-washy unprincipled moderate, the GOP looks bad, I get re-elected so that I can.... act like a wishy-washy moderate again? You guys need to wake up!

      •  That's What YOUR Crystal Ball Says, Mine Says (0+ / 0-)

        The base will be motivated to get out and vote for every Dem they can get their hands on who is running on protecting SS.

        You are not the Dem base, especially if you are considering sitting out in '14.

        Anyone who sits out in '14 because of something Obama did, is foolish at best.

        If Dems run on a united front to save SS from GOP backed cuts, they will motivate the base to vote for them. Obama's not on the ticket.

        No one will believe the GOP when they say they are the one's protecting SS, and frankly, it's delusional to even think they would run on that, considering they are now seemingly embracing the CCPI proposal. They can try, but if you think they are competent enough to pull off that nuanced game, you're being ridiculous.  They've got a bunch of loonies running all over the country. Who's gonna reign them in and keep them on message?

        This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

        by Beetwasher on Wed Apr 17, 2013 at 08:06:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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