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View Diary: Are Chechens Really White? Racial Formation Theory and the Boston Marathon Bombing (207 comments)

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  •  Race as an ethnographic term in Europe (0+ / 0-)

    goes back to late antiquity. Long before the advent of colonialism. If you aren't aware of this, I can see how you would think I was wrong. However, it's a fact. Certainly it was not synonymous with contemporary racism but that was never my argument.

    My point is that you cannot ignore the history and evolution of race in European culture and have any hope of comprehending intra-European racism. You might end up doing things like arguing that Hitler wasn't a racist.

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 04:02:08 PM PDT

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    •  Sigh, what we talk about as racism (0+ / 0-)

      in the American context is what this diary is talking about. You can call ethnic bias racism but it is worlds apart from what we have here in the US. Racism came from colonialism and saying that there's some sort of long history and intertwining between the two without providing any links or citations is absurd.

      If it's a fact then I'd like to see some documentation.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 04:10:03 PM PDT

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      •  Does that mean you're going to present some (1+ / 0-)
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        documentation?

        Look, the US is not the center of the universe and our history isn't the history of the world. When you start talking about places like Chechnya, you really shouldn't be imposing US historical and cultural frames on them. Or on Europe as a whole for that matter.

        And isn't it little hypocritical to start  complaining about a lack of citations and links when you've felt no need to present any?

        I'm really surprised that this seems to have gotten you so stirred up. Nothing I've said is particularly controversial.  

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 04:24:41 PM PDT

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        •  The diary is about race in the US (0+ / 0-)

          Or did you miss that?

          No, it isn't the center of the universe, but it is where all of this is happening and where we are, assuming you're in the US. And suddenly that context doesn't matter?

          And isn't it little hypocritical to start  complaining about a lack of citations and links when you've felt no need to present any?
          So we're both hypocrites? I seem to remember you asking first and not presenting any. I could be wrong there though.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 05:06:04 PM PDT

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          •  Um, I didn't actually ask you for citations or (1+ / 0-)
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            links. I just said you needed to do more than make flat assertions. I can see how you interpreted it that way though.

            I'd like to dial this back a bit if possible. I suspect that we are, to some extent, talking at cross purposes. Let me try to clarify.

            I am most certainly not arguing that modern, color based racism predates the age of European imperial expansion. What I am saying is that you cannot arbitrarily separate that development from its ideological and cultural antecedents. The underpinnings of modern racism didn't suddenly fall from the sky with the advent of colonialism or the trans Atlantic slave trade. Rather, the seeds for them were contained in pre-existing notions of race/ethnicity.

            Now you asked for links/citations and I, quite wrongly, responded by raising the issue of hypocrisy. I should not have done so. You are completely entitled to make that request. So here is a link that should give you a fair example of what I'm talking about.

            As you can see, certain key elements that would come to characterize modern racism as well as intra-European racism predated the advent of Imperialism.

            Where we may have a genuine difference of opinion is on the significance of such facts. With the assumption of good faith on both our parts, we might have fruitful discussion on that score.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Fri Apr 19, 2013 at 07:19:10 PM PDT

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