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View Diary: To my gun owning neighbor and to every gun enthusiast in the United States of America - (333 comments)

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  •  Do some reading before you engage in debate. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indycam

    Read some Jefferson. Locke. Hume. Madison. Lincoln. Kant. Pierce.  Read what the founders had in mind when they established "Liberty" before you use the Abridged Merriam-Webster as your sole authority on the subject.

    They all asserted that liberty within the context of civilisation does NOT mean.. do anything you feel like doing. That is a pre- middle school definition.

    Liberty, to the founders, besides being Liberty from Monarchial Oppression, Liberty from Established Religion,  Liberty from Kings, Liberty from arbitrary murder and imprisonment, and  liberty from fear, means using the concept of The Common Good to guide which actions we can all agree on are beneficial to the greatest possible liberty for all members. That your liberty stops where mine begins, and that Absolute Liberty is a fool's errand in any place where there are more than two people in a room. It is described by the word Civility. Humane Thinking. The Golden Rule, and as such is based on ancient Judeo-Christian philosophy. It is NOT what you think it is. Democracy does not exist where personal LICENCE flourishes.

    Your idea is the idea of Libertarianism. Selfish, myopic, self- interested and isolated Libertarianism. It is the opposite of democracy or a republican form of government. Somalia and Ethiopia have that. We know what it looks like. You are obviously confused about the meaning of terms.

    And thank you for declaring your departure. At least we have established what you are; a right-wing libertarian who may THINK he is a progressive liberal, but who got a very thin education on what actual liberty means.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 04:31:17 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  A 'right-wing libertairian' that has a user name (0+ / 0-)

      based on FDR.

      Your detective skills are equivalent to your language skills.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 06:34:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nice cover job. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        indycam

         Easy enough to slap on an FDR quote, but it is very apparent where your sympathies are; Scalia, Roberts, and the NRA.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 06:47:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes. It's all a CONSPIRACY!!!! (0+ / 0-)

          I also edited the dictionary.

          And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for your profound powers of deduction/mind-reading/dictionary-defeating powers.

          Drat.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 06:51:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow. Just wow. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            indycam, Glen The Plumber

            You really are convinced you are the only bright spot in the Universe at the microscopic level. You cannot even start to address the bigger and more comprehensive arguments. Not there. In the weeds.

            And, maybe if you would lay off on the ad hominum attacks, you might be able to actually.. you know.. persuade.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 07:05:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are just the gift that keeps giving. (0+ / 0-)

              "ad hominum"
              2 posts earlier "[you are] a right-wing libertarian"

              You have managed to debate the dictionary while losing a debate to yourself.

              Hats off to ya.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 07:12:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Still nothing substantive. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                indycam, Glen The Plumber

                Just hurling bumpersicker slogans. Deep, really deep.

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 08:40:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yup . (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Glen The Plumber, OregonOak

                  Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                  by indycam on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:29:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You mean other than the dictionary definition of (0+ / 0-)

                  a word?
                  A definition you refuse to concede to?

                  I really wish I could do something as 'substantive' as single-handedly taking on the dictionary while hurling such nuggets of......whatever it is you think you're doing.

                  I'll just have to leave such big-thoughts to you.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 11:39:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you not have an encyclopedia ? (0+ / 0-)

                    See the problem is ,
                    you have a dictionary
                    and OregonOak has a library full of books
                    not just a dictionary .
                    You should open up and try to understand what OregonOak is saying , he has a great deal of knowledge to share . He is not a one dimensional cartoon , he doesn't have simple pat answers to complex problems , he doesn't spew simple minded crap , he has arguments that hold together under examination .
                    If knowledge is power , he has what it takes .

                    Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                    by indycam on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 07:25:31 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He must not read them, as he already has proven (0+ / 0-)

                      he doesn't so much know the definitions of simple English words.

                      But I am certain he has made excellent headway into coloring them.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 07:31:56 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Do you realize that your childish comments (0+ / 0-)

                        are not hurting anyone but yourself ?
                        OregonOak is an adult with a great deal of knowledge on this subject , knowledge that isn't one dimensional , knowledge that doesn't lead him to say ridiculous things like "coloring them".

                        But I am certain he has made excellent headway into coloring them.
                        This is something I would expect a schoolyard bully to say and laugh about . An infantile insult that shows a great deal about the person who says it .

                        You are obviously not able to converse with OregonOak on his level and I really doubt that he will ever lower himself to your level of discourse .

                        You remind me of a loudmouth tattooed big hog riding biker who can't compete in an adult conversation and resorts to flinging inane bull shit in a futile attempt to win via a completely callous disregard for anything and everything above the neck .

                        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                        by indycam on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 08:24:50 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, I am handicapped by my insistence of using (0+ / 0-)

                          the actual definitions of words. And he certainly proved that he wouldn't stoop to the level of using the correct definitions.

                          But thanks for your opinion.
                          Really means a lot to me.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:05:56 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I think your "handicap" lays elsewhere . (0+ / 0-)

                            I think you can't accept that you don't know or understand what is being said , that you are hung up on some silly little game and you can't get past it .
                            Keep on going about

                            the actual definitions of words
                            that's really working for you . You really got him there , you really show your great depth by going on and on about "the actual definitions of words" . Do you think anyone is convinced that you have a better handle on the subject because you keep going on about "the actual definitions of words" ? Its such a childish game that you are playing , I'm almost embarrassed for you .

                            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                            by indycam on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:27:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Using a pun? How clever. (0+ / 0-)

                            Using the disabled as an insult? How classy.

                            Using the language correctly is not a 'silly game'. It is basic competence in conversation.
                            If one cannot use the language correctly to make a point, then the point is incorrect.
                            The meanings of words don't change at your convenience.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:38:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude , you brought it up . (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            OregonOak
                            Well, I am handicapped by my insistence of using
                            You can't be so two faced as to believe you can bring it up
                            and then object to it ?
                            Using the language correctly is not a 'silly game'. It is basic competence in conversation.
                            If one cannot use the language correctly to make a point, then the point is incorrect.
                            Arrogance is such bad form . Do you know that what you are saying is just plan wrong ? Or do you just not care ?

                            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                            by indycam on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:46:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Me and the dictionary. (0+ / 0-)

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:49:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And ? (0+ / 0-)
                            Me and the dictionary.
                            You and the dictionary ...

                            Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11

                            by indycam on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 09:53:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks Indy, but I don't think Frank understands. (0+ / 0-)

                          Entire volumes of books over lifetimes of scholars have been written about the concept of "liberty" and "human freedom." Its not easy and its not simple to put into effect, because the concept is abstract and hard to make work in the real world. You get that, and I get that, but many people don't, and want an easy definition to bandy about, or in this case, to just proclaim and not debate at all.

                          Voltaire, Lincoln, Marshall, Henry Clay, John and JQ Adams, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, Immanuel Kant, and thousands of others have struggled with the idea of liberty and freedom when it comes into conflict with others' vision of their own freedom. King George had  EXCELLENT liberty, for himself, yet not as much as King Phillip of Spain, blessed with no Parliament or English Magna Carta of Rights to deal with. But they both failed the test of how to maximize freedom for the greatest number of citizens, and their failure resulted in ... US. The American Experiment in freedom. Even a brief review of the history of attempts at Freedom and Liberty exposes the hazards of individual freedom unaccounted for by checks and balances, and the founders realized they were on a razor thin edge between mob rule, anarchy (perfect individual freedom for all) and tyranny, (perfect individual freedom for one great man, and none for anyone else) It is so difficult to explain how to manage the balance between anarchy and tyranny that they didn't try, aside from Jefferson and Kant, too hard; they put most of their effort into designing a government which EXPRESSED HOW to keep the balance right and charged us, their descendents, with keeping the balance alive. As Franklin said, "Gentlemen,  it is a Republic, if you can keep it."

                          The part that worries me the most is that so many Americans have discarded the concept of the Common Good as the way to maximize freedom for every citizen, seeing only their OWN freedoms as maximal and desirable. My debate here is part of that dismay. I do not know how we get back the original spirit of liberty and freedom in the American sense; we are all in this together as equals, and our laws and policies should not expand one man's freedom at the expense of another's, or one group's interests in the interest of others. Instead, we seem to have selfish interest groups single-mindedly pushing to expand their OWN freedom and liberty and everyone else can just suck eggs, if their freedom is impinged upon. If my freedom to travel is at risk because of random terrorists arms, too bad. The terroritst have a right to be armed and threaten me with them. If my freedom to associate is intimidated by armed gangs, as happened at our own Capital last month, too bad, because their freedom comes first over mine. If my freedom to support a political candidate is opposed to my armed neighbors who have violent rhetoric against that candidate, my support just has to stay hidden because their armaments are more sacred than my safety. There is too much shooting around here anyway, on weekends and evenings, and it would be too easy for a drunk armed guy to just aim a few shots this direction and then throw the gun in the river. This has happened too, to the liberal "dissenters" in the area.

                          This is all plainly Unconstitutional in my view, and the view of Mr. Breyer and Ms. Sotomayar in Heller, but no matter. Scalia got five votes and now my rights are secondary to the gun owners around me. I wont dare to put out a lawn sign for a Democrat now, since my neighbors are all armed Right wingers here in the countryside i live in. Too bad for me. Their rights are more important than mine.  

                          I really think Mr. Madison, Mr Jefferson, Mr. Kant, Mr. Lincoln and Mr. Marshall would agree with me. I can supply quotes if necessary, but I dont think those references would be well-regarded.

                           Thanks for your support.

                          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                          by OregonOak on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 04:40:05 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

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