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View Diary: In France and Ireland, Catholics Back Violence and Death to Support the Plutocracy (23 comments)

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  •  A strenuous objection (4+ / 0-)

    to the blanket use of the word "Catholics." We are talking about radical traditionalist Catholics here, not the huge numbers of people who were born and raised Catholic, and still identify as Catholic more or less. I've lived in both countries and met very few people who would condone these kinds of things.

    France is 90% "Catholic." That's nearly 60 million people. They don't all support this despicable behavior, and in fact a majority favors same-sex marriage. Ditto Ireland and liberal abortion laws, as the survey you cite demonstrates.

    I also spent 13 years in Catholic schools, and I've been pro-choice and pro-same-sex-marriage since I was a teenager in the early 90s. Lumping anyone who identifies Catholic in with these hoodlums and the hierarchy does nobody a service.

    Republicans...think the American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire the Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it. Harry S. Truman

    by fenway49 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 11:01:33 AM PDT

    •  The hierarchy would not exist without the people (0+ / 0-)

      in the pews. I quoted several sources which refer to "the Catholic Church" as inclusive of both, which is the common use of the phrase in today's vernacular.

      I did not write "all" Catholics, but those who still self-identify as such and attend mass should also understand that they are giving tacit approval to their leaders by maintaining their voluntary membership.

      •  The power to name is really important. We need to (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fenway49, marykk

        promote the separation of progressive & "traditional" Catholics.  Many of my friends & Catholic relatives donate nothing to their parish that goes to the hierarchy.  RCC attendance is continuing to fall in the developed world.

        The hierarchy's financial & administrative control over non-parish organizations is weakening.  IMHO, not fast enough, but it is weakening.

        The RCC is not a democracy, but the disconnect between the hierarchs & progressive Catholics can't last for ever.

        Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

        by sturunner on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 12:10:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm referring to the post title (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sturunner, marykk

        I don't attend mass anymore and don't support the hierarchy in any way - financially or in thought. I actually chose to marry in a Unitarian church for reasons of conscience, probably making twenty generations of forbears turn over in their graves.

        But for many reasons, I still tend to self-identify as Catholic. I understand you're not talking about people like me, but when I saw your title it seemed broad enough to include me and a lot of other people I know. That's my only point.

        Republicans...think the American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people. And they admire the Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it. Harry S. Truman

        by fenway49 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 12:21:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is very important NOT to alienate (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fenway49, marykk

          non-practicing-self identified Catholics as I've noted.  The idiot atheists did the hierarchy a real favor by running ads in  WMATA (DC & 'burbs) railcars urging Catholics to leave the RCC because of the child clerical rape problem.

          Most of my mostly Catholic extended family would never leave the Church before they tried to take it over (one is a prominent academic theologian.)  I think that is where a lot of progressive, educated, well-off Catholics are.

          What is happening in some European countries is beginning    
          to happen here.

          Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

          by sturunner on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 12:51:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Likewise the inference (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sturunner, fenway49

          About the Irish. A closer reading of the sad event indicates that the Irish people, many of whom identify as Catholic even if they don't partake, were horrified.

          If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

          by marykk on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 12:54:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And it looks like the law there will change & make (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            fenway49

            the musical-chairs hierarchy there look even more evil--&  ridiculous.

            Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world..-- Jack Layton

            by sturunner on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 01:02:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Attendance at worship (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sturunner

        Does not, in and of itself, constitute "backing violence and death."

        If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

        by marykk on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 01:45:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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