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  •  how much do we need to "understand"? (2+ / 0-)
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    Noisy Democrat, Be Skeptical

    I'm understanding that the leader of Egypt said: "mothers must nurse their children on hatred for the Jews and Zionists"

    This is an example of Muslim leadership...not some fringe element in a cave in Afghanistan.

    None of our civil liberties or rights as defined in the Constitution are compromised by being very selective about who we allow into our country. The constitution is after all, specific to the U.S.

    •  i have a good friend who is egyptian-american (14+ / 0-)

      i know peaceful practicing muslims. i'm not sure i understand your point.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:19:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We are all mirrors of each other. (6+ / 0-)

        And we keep trying to run away from ourselves.

        Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

        by nolagrl on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:23:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The point is that Islamic Supremacism is (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dalerb, fatbeagle

        shockingly widespread as an ideology, and we need to understand it and confront it. The fact that many -- perhaps most -- Muslims don't agree with it is important to know, but we should also educate ourselves about how many do agree with it and what we can do to confront it. The proponents of Islamic Supremacism are not a few nutcases hiding in a cave, unfortunately. They most definitely do not speak for the entire Muslim world, but they speak for quite a few people, and that is something we should learn more about.

        Please visit:

        by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:25:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So what? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Noisy Democrat

        Whom you know, and how they practice, is not relevant to the characterization of Islam as being a "peaceful" religion with a tiny minority of violent extremists. This simply isn't true.

        That would be the equivalent of calling racism in the South in the 50's just a tiny minority. In truth, the killers of Emmett Till were throw a parade, following their jury nullification. That's not a tiny minority, and support for violence in the muslim community is also not a tiny minority.  

        The simple truth is, a broad segment of muslims worldwide either support or advocate violent jihad, that is the reality and the fact we need to face in how we structure our immigration policies.  

        •  really? (18+ / 0-)

          please link some evidence showing that a broad section of worldwide muslims advocate violent jihad. thanks.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:33:46 AM PDT

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          •  I rec'd your comment for calling for evidence (1+ / 0-)
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            because I agree, this is about being in reality. Here's some evidence. If other people have more, or conflicting evidence, fine -- we should be educating ourselves about what the evidence actually is.


            Here's a sample from the section "Recent Polls":

            Recent (2009) polls show a disparity of views regarding terrorism, with between 15% and 30% of respondents in most Muslim countries surveyed holding a positive view (see [6] for the complete results) on various related issues. An average of 30% of respondents in Indonesia, Egypt, Pakistan and Morocco held positive views of groups that launch attacks against Americans, while similar numbers held a negative view or a neutral view. With regards specifically to al-Qaeda, in Egypt, 21% of respondents supported their attacks on Americans, while 33% opposed attacks on Americans but supported al-Qaeda's goals and 28% opposed both al-Qaeda's attacks and goals; the remainder held no strong opinion.
            So: Strong evidence that it is not about all Muslims. But also strong evidence that it's about more than a few.

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            by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:43:15 AM PDT

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            •  and what percentage of americans (5+ / 0-)

              support attacking iran or islam in general? less than 1/3 does not strike me as broad support. more than half of republican primary voters said they thought obama wasn't born in the usa.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:47:52 AM PDT

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              •  What do you define as "broad support"? (1+ / 0-)
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                I think the fact that about 1/4 of our country (half of Republicans) thinks Obama wasn't born here means about 1/4 of our country is arguably nuts. What say you? What percentages would you be looking for?

                Please visit:

                by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:50:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yes (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BradyB, wader, a2nite, shaharazade

                  they're nuts. and they're a small minority. and the number whp turn violent, like the number of religious fanatics who turn violent, is relatively tiny.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:53:14 AM PDT

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                •  p.s. in case I didn't make it clear, I think (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Naniboujou, dalerb, fatbeagle

                  having one-fourth of your country be nuts is not good. I call that "broad support" for the crazy theory that Obama is not an American. You may have a different cut-off, in which case we shouldn't use the term "broad support" because I'm not using it to mean "majority" but simply "widespread enough to be a significant and worrisome phenomenon, not just a few bad apples."

                  Please visit:

                  by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:53:31 AM PDT

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            •  Where is the muslim opposition? (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Noisy Democrat
              Hidden by:

              Where are the mullas advocating for peaceful non-violent protest in the mode of Gandhi/MLK? Where are the mullas interpreting the term "jihad" in non-violent ways? Where are the mullas speaking out against statements like I posted by the  leader of Egypt?

              If they're out there, they're silent. Out of fear?.... perhaps. Out of silent agreement with these violent tendencies?....perhaps.

              Either way, islamic leadership is either calling for violent jihad, or it's largely silent.

              When I see a change in that equation, I'll start to consider the possibility there is any excuse to allow more people from these muslim countries into the U.S.. Until then, only with a very good reason, and only in small numbers.  

              •  wow (7+ / 0-)

                if you have to ask you're not looking. try google.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:13:23 AM PDT

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              •  Over generalizing is self-defeating (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Noisy Democrat

                You can't generalize about all Muslim countries and sometimes it's only specific regions of specific Muslim countries.  

                It's like when Catholics were setting off bombs in London, you don't profile all Catholics.  You don't even profile all Irish Catholics.  But you can profile Irish Catholics from certain neighborhoods in specific cities.  That's not perfect.  Innocents get profiled and terrorists get missed but you have to focus on the most likely areas of concern.  

              •  There is one American Muslim leader who keeps (0+ / 0-)

                speaking out strongly. His name is Dr Zuhdi Jasser. He keeps calling for reform of Islam to make it compatible with Western democracy. The thing that concerns me is that there don't appear to be many people like him in the American Muslim community. There could be a number of reasons for that, but the impression I'm getting so far is that he's something of a voice crying in the wilderness.  

                There was also recently posted an appeal from Canadian Muslims for Americans to wake up and realize that extremism is a serious problem and that we need to be more aware of it. Now I can't seem to find it, but in my googling, I've found an open letter from 2006 arguing that we need to realize that there are progressive people in Muslim countries who want to get free of the extremists, and that we aren't doing moderate Muslims any favors by refusing to speak out against Islamic extremism.  If we actually care about being fair to Muslims, it seems to me that we should be learning more about who's who, what the agendas are, who the genuine moderates are, who's actually pushing extremism, etc.

                Please visit:

                by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:22:12 AM PDT

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              •  Yeah, I have to do it... (1+ / 0-)
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                HR'd for blatant bigoted rhetoric towards Muslims.

                If you aren't aware of the major pushback from moderate Muslim groups against these violent acts then you must be intentionally not looking for them.

              •  Do you understand the term "mulla" (0+ / 0-)

                Fuck Google, you're living in a fantasy world where we don't have groups out to kill us.

                I was referring to international islamic clerics and the widespread acceptance, as posted in this tread, throughout the  muslin world, of exactly the violence these men engaged in.

                I'm not talking about some muslim doctor living in Manhattan. A few of you really need to get a grip on reality, you don't make friends with Nazis or those with similar views.

              •  The mosque in Boston, for one, (1+ / 0-)
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                that refused to have a funeral for Tamerlan because they said he had disgraced Islam by the violence against innocent civilians -- that's an incredible step, to refuse to bury your own dead out of principle. It got very little press, but I noticed it in the Globe.

                Other Islamic Societies in the US have also condemned the bombings as contrary to Islam.

                But Fox and CNN and etc. etc. are more interested in having ignorant talking heads speculate about how "there could have been foreign training" than in reporting what actual US Muslims say.

              •  More links to answer your question (0+ / 0-)

                1. The Muslim Peace Fellowship / Ansâr as-Salâm
                2. The American Muslim Voice Foundation, also an affiliate of the Fellowship of Reconciliation.

                The Fellowship of Reconciliation website has many more links.

    •  I've heard plenty of (18+ / 0-)

      Catholic and Christian sect hierarchy preach vile things about LGBT, women, minorities -- should I condemn all Catholics and Christians for the voices of evil?  Our own leadership since the beginning of this nation has said vile things about Jews, Catholics, Native Americans, Asians, Germans, and they've actually acted on their pronouncements.  See, e.g. the "sainted" FDR re: Japanese Americans and Jewish refugees and African Americans.  

      " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:19:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Precisely. Islamic Supremacists are explicitly (1+ / 0-)
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      pursuing an agenda that is directly opposed to our Constitution and to democracy itself. If the Tsarnaevs were proponents of Islamic Supremacism -- as seems extremely likely at this point -- then it's important to find out how and where they got involved with it, how widespread its influence is in the American Muslim immigrant community, and so forth. Surely we would say the same thing if they had been proponents of murderous White Supremacism. Would anyone here argue that we shouldn't keep tabs on the KKK, be concerned if its members go on murderous rampages, and try to find out how widespread the ideology is? Islamic Supremacism is the same kind of thing.

      Please visit:

      by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:20:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And Xian fundamentalists (13+ / 0-)

        are "explicitly pursuing an agenda that is directly opposed to our Constitution and democracy itself."

        Would you like to know the difference between the Islamic Supremacists and the Christian ones?  The Christian ones are in our Congress, State legislatures, military, PACs, etc.  in droves.  

        Please name the Islamic Supremacists who are in our federal and state legislatures.  I really am willing to wait.

        " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:40:34 AM PDT

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        •  They aren't in our legislatures at this point (0+ / 0-)

          They're following a different strategy. But it isn't an either/or thing. We should be concerned about both Islamic Supremacists and Christian Dominionists -- any group that denies the authority of our Constitution and refuses to accept the idea of a pluralist society. Responding to the argument "There are some people with a very scary agenda that we should be concerned about" with "Oh, yeah? Well, there are some other people with a very scary agenda that we should be concerned about" -- what's the point?  Surely reality-based people want to be informed about both.

          Please visit:

          by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:37:21 AM PDT

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          •  I'm reality based (11+ / 0-)

            and haven't seen any Islamic Supremacists doing damage in our country via our political system.  Perhaps you are one of the lucky groups -- ok, the only lucky group -- that hasn't had an assault on privacy and other freedoms because of effing Xian nuts in positions of power.

            You can be scared of Sharia Law and scary Islamic Fundamentalists infiltrating our country via Mexico if you want.  I'm more concerned about Xian crap controlling my life and others because it is actually real.

            " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

            by gchaucer2 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:41:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  False choice (0+ / 0-)

              It isn't either/or. Islamic Supremacists murdered some of our fellow citizens just two weeks ago, and were planning to kill more. I think it's very reasonable to learn more about what's going on on that front, and to reject any premature conclusion that the attack was merely the work of a couple of confused young men.

              At the same time, I'm also scared of Fundamentalists hijacking our government. I guess I have plenty of adrenalin to go around. :)

              Please visit:

              by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 04:47:39 PM PDT

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              •  I'd say you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                have plenty of 'fear' or paranoia to go around. What was Tim Mac Vey except a  fanatical,nationalist, bigot who snapped. It Pretty simplistic to blame it on one religion or a region. You have entirely overlooked the history/ back story of the ME countries and the West's so called civilized world.. The Christian Inquisition or even the Crusades makes your bigoted fear and loathing of the Muslim religion obvious. Our culture here in the US religious and secular is violent and uses religious prejudice and nationalism to terrorize for purely geopolitical dominance. Misplaced fear and hatred only fuels the fanatics and makes the circle continue until people snap, individually and collectively.      

                 It is not just a question of Muslims are fanatical jhadist's. Terrorist acts are committed by humans globally both historically and now. It is not a question of religion or even nationalism it's the dark violent side of humanity and believe me the US really knows how to terrorize they have it down.
                 From Juan Cole ...

                Terrorism and the other Religions

                Contrary to what is alleged by bigots like Bill Maher, Muslims are not more violent than people of other religions. Murder rates in most of the Muslim world are very low compared to the United States.

                As for political violence, people of Christian heritage in the twentieth century polished off tens of millions of people in the two world wars and colonial repression. This massive carnage did not occur because European Christians are worse than or different from other human beings, but because they were the first to industrialize war and pursue a national model. Sometimes it is argued that they did not act in the name of religion but of nationalism. But, really, how naive. Religion and nationalism are closely intertwined. The British monarch is the head of the Church of England, and that still meant something in the first half of the twentieth century, at least. The Swedish church is a national church. Spain? Was it really unconnected to Catholicism? Did the Church and Francisco Franco’s feelings toward it play no role in the Civil War? And what’s sauce for the goose: much Muslim violence is driven by forms of modern nationalism, too.....

                It takes a peculiar sort of blindness to see Christians of European heritage as “nice” and Muslims and inherently violent, given the twentieth century death toll I mentioned above. Human beings are human beings and the species is too young and too interconnected to have differentiated much from group to group. People resort to violence out of ambition or grievance, and the more powerful they are, the more violence they seem to commit. The good news is that the number of wars is declining over time, and World War II, the biggest charnel house in history, hasn’t been repeated.

                •  That's all beside the point (0+ / 0-)

                  Arguing about the Crusades or the 2nd World War -- that's all a big distraction. In this context, I don't actually care whether Christians are nicer than Muslims. Bottom line: Our fellow citizens were killed by Islamic Supremacists, here in Boston. We have a duty to our fellow citizens -- those who died or were injured, and all our fellow citizens, because we all rely on each other to defend this nation -- not to take that lightly. If it turns out that the two brothers were just nuts who snapped, fine. But we need to find out what was going on and we need to think about the ideology that encouraged those brothers to kill people.

                  To do anything different would be the same as arguing that we shouldn't protest against Trayvon Martin's killing because after all, George Zimmerman may've been a lone nut who just snapped. We and our fellow citizens deserve better than that.

                  Please visit:

                  by Noisy Democrat on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 10:11:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Islamic Supremacists? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        congenitalefty, Tommye

        Much of the anti-American sentiment in the Muslim world traces back to American foreign policy, not some drive for Islamic supremacy in the world.
           Even Osama bin Laden's writings had to do with grievances against the US within the Muslim part of the world.
           The Boston bombers were apparently upset with the US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
           It is dangerous to stereotype all Muslims as violent religious extremists.

    •  Another choice quote (0+ / 0-)

      He characterized Zionists as “bloodsuckers who attack the Palestinians, these warmongers, the descendants of apes and pigs.”

      NY Times Jan 15, 2013

      This man is the president of a country with nearly 85 million people.

    •  I could say similarly about USA Evagelical leaders (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Laurence Lewis, chuckvw, KayCeSF

      and their messages to flocks.

      Republican politicians and their messages meant to keep 23% of the electorate in thrall.


      Your comment is simply falling into the circular trap described within this diary, I feel:

      . . . others were almost hoping that the perpetrators would be native born, have a different religion and different political beliefs, and again for the purpose of caricaturing and demonizing. Neither serves any positive purpose. Neither brings us any closer to understanding. Both take us farther from what we idealize as the concept of humanity.
      There are bad, manipulative and selfish people at the leadership of every movement that has a bad face to it, but your broad demonization of the Islamic for the negativity of some who use it to further their self-serving ends (through dangerous rhetoric and/or actions - e.g., the Taliban) runs around the truth: most adherents of Islam don't desire what happened in Boston.

      Perhaps it would be more useful to examine and minimize the enablers of such poor messages, given the age-old willingness of people to be inspired by these kinds of directives since our earliest days as a species - especially in a day and age when information from most places of the world with a phone connection can have a say in the global village.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Sun Apr 28, 2013 at 11:26:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  dalerb -And many Jews say similar things (0+ / 0-)

      about Muslims.

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