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View Diary: Howard Kurtz is just *appalled* that Jason Collins dated a womanfolk. UPDATE: Kurtz Fired (284 comments)

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  •  There's a difference between being romantically (3+ / 0-)

    involved and being engaged, planning a wedding.  Especially if the relationship has lasted eight years.  It takes a lot of effort to maintain a lie for that long.  It has to be worked at in earnest.

    I may not be Carolyn Moos but, unless she was in on being the beard, I think I might understand how she feels.  She'll get over him, but the years of lies and deceit will be hard to forgive.

    "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

    by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 01:33:37 PM PDT

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    •  How many married couples stay married (9+ / 0-)

      for decades before they divorce, much to the relief of all concerned? Before recognizing that they couldn't stand being married to each other?  Would you say they'd been "maintaining a lie" for all those years? That they'd "worked at" it "in earnest"?

      It's not at all clear what you're about here. Unless it's a desire to paint the fiance as a victim, a role she herself rejects.

      Nothing human is alien to me.

      by WB Reeves on Thu May 02, 2013 at 02:40:27 PM PDT

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      •  Better read Carolyn Moos statement again (3+ / 0-)

        It was loving and gracious, but this:

        "It’s very emotional for me as a woman to have invested 8 years in my dream to have a husband, soul mate, and best friend in him. So this is all hard to understand."
        That sounds like a very dignified way of saying "I feel hurt for having wasted eight years."

        What I'm about, as you put it, is pointing out that there was another human being involved in all of this, and in way too many of the comments she's being cavalierly treated as collateral damage.

        "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

        by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:26:29 PM PDT

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        •  Is it bad that they broke up, or is it bad that (15+ / 0-)

          it took him a while to realize and accept his homosexuality?

          Do you even know what it's like to be gay?

          Would this be a different story if they were engaged for 8 years and then broke it off because they suddenly didn't get along, or one of them got bored with the other?

          Or is it just because it took him a while to realize he's gay?

          If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."

          by weatherdude on Thu May 02, 2013 at 03:38:53 PM PDT

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          •  Stringing a woman along for eight years is wrong (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eyesbright, Spider Jerusalem

            in all instances.  The longer you string someone along the more pain you inflict on them because you've caused them to waste their time, and time is something they can never get back.  It's really inexcusable under any circumstance.

            Here's a rhetorical question: have you ever been in an eight-year relationship?  You don't just wake up one day and not get along. There's always a history.

            Here's another rhetorical question: how long did it take you to realize you we're gay?  Did it take you until you were in your thirties, or did you know when you were in high school, maybe even grade school?

            I've never met anyone who told me they didn't figure out they were gay until they were thirty.  My best friend told he knew long before he ever knew what sex was, at about age five.  His partner said he knew by the time he was in junior high.  My ex-lover told me when he came out to me he knew from the age of eight.  A close friend and colleague from work told me he knew by age eleven.  When I asked my college roommate how long she'd been a lesbian she said her whole life as far as she could remember, though she stayed in the closet until her mid-twenties.  I think there's a big difference between being in the closet and not realizing you're gay until you're in your thirties.

            "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

            by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:36:55 PM PDT

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            •  Don't blame Collins, (10+ / 0-)

              blame the "ex-gay" movement that tells its adherents to get involved with straight women and you can turn yourself straight.

              In reading Collins' statement, that sounds like exactly what he was doing. It had nothing to do with his career (he could have gone the Manti Te'o route and made up a dead girlfriend), and more about what he thought was acceptable to society. Maybe there were family pressures involved -- we don't know for sure.

              There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

              by Cali Scribe on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:55:50 PM PDT

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              •  We are all responsible for our own actions. (0+ / 0-)

                Eight years is a long time.  Few in this thread are willing to concede that there's someone besides Collins whose feelings deserve consideration.  Put yourself in her shoes. You think maybe after going with her for eight years, being engaged to her for a year, Collins could have done the decent thing and told her the score personally rather than let her find out with the rest of the world?  Cold, just cold.

                "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

                by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 09:40:47 PM PDT

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            •  i've been in relationships where (0+ / 0-)

              i was strung along for years.

              i got over it.

            •  You are obviously in pain over *your* situation. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Perhaps you could stop using this situation as your punching bag?

              The GOP says you have to have an ID to vote, but $ Millionaire donors should remain anonymous?

              by JVolvo on Fri May 03, 2013 at 11:42:15 AM PDT

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            •  What's your age limit for others (0+ / 0-)

              to come out to themselves?  Because I know plenty of people who were in their thirties or even later.  Including me.  Sorry if I was too slow for you.

              It's one thing to look back and realize you were always gay, but another thing altogether at the time to fully come out to yourself.

              And yes, I too had heterosexual relationships. Even had myself convinced I was in love with them. I now know I was fooling myself and trying to be something I was not, but I did not know then.  I don't know Collins, but I have no evidence to justify an assumption that he was any different. And neither do you.

        •  It's not that simple (30+ / 0-)

          I've been reading her interviews today.

          Here's the rest of that quote:

          Carolyn Moos added: “I care about [Jason] tremendously and only want the best for him. I want Jason to be happy for a lifetime and stay true to who he really is, inside and out.
          She went on to say that she wants him to be happy: “Everyone deserves to be happy, everyone deserves to live in their own skin. So for him to wake upon a daily basis not being able to do that, it hit me really hard. It still is, I’m still processing it.”
          And from another:
          Although the news caused Moos to rethink her future, she doesn't feel betrayed by Collins.

          "I definitely want to have children and I definitely want to be married and that was the hardest part," she said. "I think as women, we do have goals and timetables, but I think when you're writing a dream and a life-long script with somebody who you truly believed you're going to wake up to for the rest of your life—that's not easy to let go of. But I think with time and information, you can have a prospective on it. It's all processing. It's literally three days fresh."

          Moos added, "Hopefully in that process we can still be a part of each other's lives in a positive way."

          What she sounds like to me is someone who was understandably hurt and confused when he broke off their engagement, who is now glad to know the real reason, and who supports him fully and still cares a great deal about him.

          There is zero indication that she feels it was "wasted" time or that she resents the relationship or wishes it never happened.

          I also want to just say to you that I have been in this situation too, except my husband did marry me and did not tell me about his secret feelings and struggles with his sexuality for another 5 years. He told me 16 years ago. I felt many feelings; I was surprised, hurt, sad, and also relieved to understand what had been so troubling him and glad he finally trusted me enough to talk about it. We also both still loved each other very much, and like her my main thought was that he deserved to be himself and to be happy, even if that meant letting him go.

          We gave each other a couple of years of space to process it and figure out the way forward. During that time he dated men and explored his new feelings to see where it lead him. I supported this fully as his friend and confidant. After a couple of years things settled down again. We are still married today and are very content, settled, and happy now. He's a happy and integrated person, he identifies as bisexual and he no longer feels conflicted, but it took time and a lot of communication and working through stuff to get there. So from my perspective, it is not a given that the relationship was a lie, nor that she necessarily feels she wasted her time with him. Maybe she does, but I don't get that from her interviews.

          I told my husband when he came out to me that even if we decided to split up eventually, I would never regret the love we share or the time we have had together. I still feel that way. I would have let him go if he decided he needed to be in a full time relationship with a man, and still been glad for the time we had together. Like Carolyn Moos, I felt mostly sad for him that he had been so isolated and hiding from himself as well as me and everyone else for so long, and I wanted him to be happy and find out what his heart truly wanted and needed. I never once wished that he'd never gotten together with me, never.

          My point is, don't make assumptions about how she feels based on how you feel or felt. We are all different and have different ways of dealing with the things that happen to us. Bitterness, anger, and self-absorbed focus on one's own pain are common reactions, but not all of us react that way. I actually relate very much to the things she has said in her interviews today.

          •  very insightful comment, CS. (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CS in AZ, 2thanks, Gemina13, caul, JVolvo

            I can relate to your circumstances more than I can describe in detail here in "public".  

            As you describe so well, this kind of thing is so complicated for everyone involved that nobody should be judging or angry unless it's about their own relationship.

            "The death penalty is never about the criminal. They've already done their worst. The question is always "will we join them"?" - jlynne

            by Hopeful Skeptic on Thu May 02, 2013 at 05:01:31 PM PDT

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          •  Well, since they broke up in 2009, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Karl Rover

            after 8 years of "engagement" but no marriage, why on earth hasn't she managed to move on to the next guy after 4 years? Looks like pure denial to me.

            •  Wow, now that's uncalled for (13+ / 0-)

              First of all they were not engaged for 8 years, they dated for 7 years, got engaged, then he called off the wedding but refused to tell her why, so she never understood why things fell apart, especially since they obviously did love each other.

              In what world is she or anyone required to "move on to the next guy" within some specified time frame? Maybe she hasn't met anyone else she fell in love with yet? Hum? Or maybe because she and Jason Collins actually did love each other and he never told her why he called it off, she knew there was something more there, and held on to hope? Hell, I don't know her or her feelings, and neither do you. But attacking her for not having "moved on to the next guy" within your schedule seems quite mean-spirited and wrong. I will say that the fact she is still not seeing someone new after 4 years does not support the argument some are making that she was desperate to get married and he was 'wasting her time' -- but nonetheless this kind of judgmental crap about her is totally uncalled for.

          •  I'm very happy you and your husband share (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            a mutually loving and committed relationship.  You are an unusual woman.  I don't know many women who would remain married while their spouse dated. I've known women in open marriages, but sooner or later they divorced.

            Just a small point, I think it's clear from Carolyn Moos's statement "I definitely want to have children...I think as women, we do have goals and timetables..." that she does indeed feel she wasted her time, that the biological clock is ticking.  That doesn't contradict wanting to "still be a part of each other's lives in a positive way."

            "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

            by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 06:09:24 PM PDT

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            •  She is still processing her feelings (10+ / 0-)

              which are undoubtedly complex and multifaceted, but the point is, she is not wallowing in bitterness over it. And believe me I have seem plenty of wives who do, so I know what that looks like.

              As I said, she may get more angry later. There may well be times of anger related to feelings of 'wasted' time but she says she values having him in her life -- so clearly having him there wasn't a waste. She also said she realizes she still has time to do the things she wants with her own life. It's been four years since their relationship ended and she's not even dating anyone new, so she does't seem particularly rushed to find a husband and have kids. And there may be other times when she will continue to appreciate what they had, knowing him, and possibly even being happy for what they may still have as part of each others lives going forward, since they both seem to really care about each other.

              She wants him in her life still, that says to me she is not filled with anger and resentment over how he wrecked her life and wasted her precious time. What I'm seeing in your comments today and those of a few other women who DO feel that some gay guy wasted their time, is projection of your feelings onto her. Which is what I do not agree with.

              And that is because, yes you are right, I am unusual in how I felt and how my husband and I worked things out. But I am not unique. Not by a long shot. There are far, far more people living in alternative marriages of all kinds than anyone realizes. I'm lucky enough to have gotten to know many other women (and men) who have made similar choices that I know we are not as unusual as some may think. But we also certainly know our choices are not for the masses. That is fine. One thing we all have in common is the sense that other women do not support or understand our feelings. When you write things like "she feels such and such" because YOU felt that way, you are being unfair to her. You are projecting your experiences. Maybe you are right, and who knows, in a few weeks or months Carolyn Moos might come out with a scathing book on how Jason Collins used her and wasted her time and damaged her life. I'm in no way saying that she doesn't or won't feel that way. But what I'm saying is that we don't know that.

              And also that from the way she is reacting in her interviews, I related to her words. She sounds like I did, and not like those who are deeply bitter and feel used and time wasted, because they very rarely if ever say such supportive comments. Nope, they are all about how he's a lying asshole, a coward, etc. etc. She is not coming off that way at all, in her initial reactions. And from what they both said publicly it appears their love was quite real. Which of course I have no trouble believing could be true.

              So I'm saying, speak for yourself, let her speak for herself, don't make assumptions about how she feels, or that their whole relationship was a lie, etc. Those again are your experiences, but may not be hers. To respect her, we must let her define her experiences for herself, not paint her as a victim when she is not presenting herself that way.

              Peace to you.

          •  I wrote about this before (8+ / 0-)

            A woman I considered my adopted little sister divorced her husband of 20 years last year.  He came out of the closet, which wounded her immensely.  However, she didn't divorce him because he was gay.  She divorced him because he started trying to clean out their joint bank accounts, told her he'd been unfaithful during their marriage, and started bragging on Facebook about his new life with boyfriends, bars, and bears.

            It's tough living in the closet.  I know; although I came out to close friends, a sibling, and the DK community, nobody who doesn't need to know about my orientation knows a damn thing other than that I'm in love and live with a man.  (I'm the third bi woman he's dated.  Go figure.)  From what I've read, it seems that Jason Collins loved Carolyn enough to not want to continue lying to her.  At least he told her before they married and built a life together.  I am deeply sorry for her pain, but I also understand why he tried to create a fiction for himself--especially considering hate crimes against LGBT people are on the rise, and homophobia is still rampant in sports.

            Finally, I'm sorry for anyone who's been in that situation--but the only two people who know what happened have already said their piece.  In this case, outside judgments are probably neither welcome nor necessary.

            Hope is a good thing--maybe the best of things--and no good thing ever dies.

            by Gemina13 on Thu May 02, 2013 at 08:21:46 PM PDT

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            •  Yours is one of the most even handed comments (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              caul, Nowhere Man, Gemina13

              I've read on this thread. Just wanted to say that.

              "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

              by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:15:27 PM PDT

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            •  Ditto to what IE says..... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nowhere Man, Gemina13

              In high school my sister dated a guy who was closeted.  She had her suspicions, and one day asked him flat out if he was.  He answered honestly that yes, he was, and they broke up.

              I'm not sure if that contributed to it -- I go back and forth on that, given the time lag -- but she had to seek counseling in her freshman year for an eating disorder (anorexia/bulemia) that she has (thankfully) fully recovered from.  She's married now, with a son, and quite happy.

              I have long since -- this happened in the late '70s -- gotten to know many gay people, one of whom is my best friend, and know that coming out, while a bit easier than it was back then, is still fraught with some little anxiety.

              I always did wonder what happened to the guy she dated.  My having met a number of open gay people since then leads me to say I can only hope he too is happily sharing his life with someone special to him.  

              Is it courageous to propose tax cuts but not identify a single tax expenditure to rein in? Is it courageous to target your deepest cuts on the poorest Americans, who vote in lower numbers and provide little in campaign contributions?

              by caul on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:59:23 AM PDT

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