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View Diary: Howard Kurtz is just *appalled* that Jason Collins dated a womanfolk. UPDATE: Kurtz Fired (284 comments)

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  •  Is it any of our business? (1+ / 0-)
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    The private lives of publc people are fodder for the masses.  If he were just some guy, no it wouldn't be our business.  But he's not just some guy.  And my thoughts on the matter would have remained only in my head had comments in this thread not treated the woman as meare collateral damage.

    "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

    by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 07:31:55 PM PDT

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    •  Why are you so fucking selfish? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      caul, terrypinder, JVolvo

      I had a boyfriend in high school who was gay. He was my first ever boyfriend, and he ran off with my best friend. When everybody found out, he couldn't go back to high school for fear of his physical safety. He had to drop out and get his GED at night school.

      I could have been like you. He was my first boyfriend. My first kiss. My first date. I could have thought it was all about my embarrassment. I could have shunned him as everyone encouraged me to. But you know what? I'm not a fucking princess who thinks only of myself and my high school reputation, or who dreams of my fucking goddamned wedding, or fucking ring or engagement party, or my fucking baby shower with all my girlfriends.

      I stayed friends with him. I did so even though a lot of people gave me crap for it, because I liked him. I was genuinely connected to him, and when he came out, I was glad that I got to know him as the person he really was.

      This is why I can't stand conventional heterosexuality. Because too many women just want a man to be a mirror of their ideal, narcissistic femininity. Just like so many men just want a woman to affirm their narcissistic sense of masculinity and virility. Women like that just want a house and marriage and for "the man" to play his proper role. There's absolutely no real connection.

      I think Jason Collins is an extraordinarily brave man for coming out. The kind of pettiness that grieves for a wedding that never was will never understand the historical significance of his courage for millions of LGBT Americans, and that knowing and loving someone honestly is worth a hell of a lot more than a fucking engagement party.

      His coming out was a gift to his ex-fiance. Now she gets to love him for the person that he is. It's unfortunate that you're too selfish to realize that.

      •  I've been accused of lot of things in this thread (0+ / 0-)

        But selfish?  The definition of selfish is: "seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others."

        Someone in this story has been selfish but it hasn't been me.  I'm just a bystander commenting on what I see.  My view may be accurate.  It may be totally off base.  But it's a just a point of view.  There is no advantage, disadvantage, pleasure or displeasure in holding it, and whether I hold it or not has no effect, good or ill, on anyone.

        My being concerned about Carolyn Moos's feelings could be termed many things, but as there's no personal advantage for me in it, it can't be labeled selfish.

        "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

        by Involuntary Exile on Thu May 02, 2013 at 11:59:37 PM PDT

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        •  What about the saying ... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sue B, terrypinder, CS in AZ, JVolvo

          "All is fair in love and war" do you not understand?

          She's not a victim. You're acting like he owed her a love he didn't feel. He's not a bad person because he wasn't attracted to her. Nor is he a bad person because he didn't give her a marriage, money and children.

          I'm sorry, but your "concern" feels really homophobic. Suppose he broke up with her because he was in love with another woman. What would be the difference really? Nothing. And yet you're all up and down this thread insisting his gayness is the problem, and that he must have known he was gay, because all people who are gay know they're gay from a young age, and that gay people who conform to social pressure to fit in and have a family are somehow bad people if they can't live up to some fairytale bullshit.

          Speaking of which, you're insisting that he should have known and probably knew, but you say nothing of her. How could someone who knew and loved him for eight years not know? Perhaps she did know and selfishly denied it because she loved him and wanted marriage and a family. Perhaps she thought she could fix him. That would be really fucked up if true, but that doesn't even occur to you.

          And the idea that he has to apologize to her in public?! For what?! It's none of your fucking business! She chose to make a very gracious public statement as is her right; but he's under no obligation to make any public statements concerning his private life.

          I'm sorry, but the word "selfish" describes your "concern" to a T.

          •  What about saying.... (0+ / 0-)

            We are responsible for our decisions and actions.

            My friends would laugh hearing me called homophobic.  There have been many gay people in my life.  Some have died, some I lost touch with over the years, and some are still very close to me and I love them very much. I know full well life hasn't been easy for gays and lesbians.  For many coming out was really hard. For my friends who came out to me I lent a hand, an ear and a shoulder to cry. But having a hard life doesn't give you a license to deceive someone who loves you, especially over a long period of time. Deceit is insidious. Common decency demands more of friends, let alone lovers.

            "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

            by Involuntary Exile on Fri May 03, 2013 at 12:59:32 PM PDT

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        •  It's a point of view that casts pretty awful (4+ / 0-)

          aspersions on someone.  That's why you're getting flack.  Not because you're concerned for Moos, but because you've made a lot of assumptions about Collins that are unjustified and cruel, and run counter to his own discussion about his process of coming out first to himself and then to people around him.

          Seriously.  In this thread you've called him an asshole who conned her, and used her as a prop to advance his career.  

          Truth time: My husband thought seriously about marrying a woman when he was younger because the idea of being homosexual terrified him.  We all go through that, and thank god many of us find the strength to admit to ourselves and to others who we are.   Homophobia is crippling, especially when you have no support network.  Blaming the people who go through that, even in their weakness, is about as tone-deaf as it gets.

          You don't have to lash out against Collins in order to show sympathy for what Moos has gone through.  Why is this so hard?

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:38:03 AM PDT

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          •  You're right. (0+ / 0-)

            I've been hard on Jason Collins. I find deceit hard to countenance.  It's insidious, always harmful.

            Obviously, not everyone sees it that way. Oh we'll.

            "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

            by Involuntary Exile on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:25:40 PM PDT

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            •  You're an awful person. (0+ / 0-)

              To read what I wrote - and a personal story I shared with you - and to write that comment in response.

              Just awful.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:53:09 PM PDT

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              •  Why did you take that personally? (0+ / 0-)

                You asked why I was lashing out at Collins.  I answered why.  Everything in that comment was about Collins.  Nothing was about you, your husband, his story or yours.  Obviously, I didn't make that clear.  I'm sorry about that, especially if it hurt you.

                I don't know you and you don't know me.  All we know about each other is contained in these few comments which I'm faintly certain are insufficient to draw any conclusions about the character of the other.  Look, we couldn't even communicate with one another without miscommunication/misinterpretation.  It's an unfortunate byproduct of writing in one's own shorthand.  For that I am truly sorry.  But if you think I'm an awful person because of one point of view on one issue, then it should comfort you to know that we will almost certainly never meet.

                "Some folks rob you with a six-gun, some rob you with a fountain pen." - Woody Guthrie

                by Involuntary Exile on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:51:45 PM PDT

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