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View Diary: Guns Are Property, Not Liberty (114 comments)

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  •  Why can't the "Right To Keep And Bear Arms"... (0+ / 0-)

    ...be both a civil and a property right at the same time? The author seems to want to draw a distinction.

    And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

    by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:21:47 PM PDT

    •  I'm afraid the many 2nd Ammendment... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dogs are fuzzy

      ...supporters view the "right to bear arms" as an inalienable right, endowed by their creator.
      A clearer distinction would be "natural rights" and "legal rights".

      And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

      by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 01:32:06 PM PDT

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    •  What is the "liberty" interest? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FutureNow, concernedamerican, Miggles

      Gun ownership, in and of itself, can't be a civil right if you have to pay for your gun. Guns are property; the manufacturer/seller has property rights in it until you pay for it. Ownership is

      So, what is the "liberty" interest contained in the words "Keep and Bear Arms"? What do these words give you the right to do (or refrain from doing), free from arbitrary restraint, and independent of any property rights in guns?

      •  I'm not clear as to why you are using... (0+ / 0-)

        ...the word liberty and civil interchangeably.

        And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

        by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:42:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Aren't property rights a liberty interest? (0+ / 0-)

          And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

          by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:44:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miggles

            Property rights are property rights.

            Liberty interests are the basis of civil rights. Free speech and free exercise of religion are liberty interests. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure is a liberty interest. Freedom from racial discrimination is a liberty interest. Privacy in reproductive health care decisions is a liberty interest. Marriage to the person of your choice is a liberty interest.

            Ownership (or lawful possession) of guns is a property interest.

            The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments distinguish human, civil and property rights, respectively, by forbidding the deprivation of "life, liberty or property without due process of law." Liberty and property are two separate and distinct categories.

            •  You're trying to equate gun rights with civil... (0+ / 0-)

              ...rights. That's where I disagree with you, or anyone on the pro gun side that believes gun ownership is a civil right. I, frankly, don't see many making that argument.

              And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

              by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 02:59:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why do you believe that the word... (0+ / 0-)

                ...liberty means civil?

                And they scream... The worst things in life come free to us... Cause we're just under the upper hand... And go mad for a couple grams.

                by glb3 on Fri May 03, 2013 at 03:03:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't, it doesn't, and I didn't say it did. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Miggles

                  Liberty interests are the basis of civil rights.

                  Where and how, from that, do you get "liberty means civil"?

                  Free speech and free exercise of religion are liberty interests; they are also civil rights. Freedom from unreasonable search and seizure is a liberty interest; it is also a civil right. Freedom from racial discrimination is a liberty interest; it is also a civil right. Privacy in reproductive health care decisions is a liberty interest; it is also a civil right. Marriage to the person of your choice is a liberty interest; it is also a civil right.

                  Spend some time studying civil rights law if you want to understand the meaning of the terms "liberty interest" and "civil right."

                •  Civil rights law, in its entirety, is based on (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hyperstation, Miggles

                  the "liberty" portion of the Due Process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments:

                  "No person shall...be deprived of...liberty...without due process of law."

                  "No state shall...deprive any person of...liberty...without due process of law."

                  ...as well as the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which applies to the federal government through the Fifth Amendment's Due Process clause; viz., "equal protection of the laws" (i.e., freedom from discrimination) is a protected liberty interest.

              •  I'm not. -They- are. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Miggles, 417els

                I'm trying to figure out (1) how the Right to Keep and Bear Arms could be a civil right, viz., anything other than a property right, and (2) why so many "conservatives" and libertarians, usually such big fans of property rights, insist that this particular property right is actually a civil right.

                That you "don't see many making that argument" doesn't mean it's not being made. I do see, and have seen, many making that argument.

                I suspect it's because they, being the heroes of their own private mythology, don't deem property rights to be heroic enough for them. They think the Second Amendment gives them the right not just to own guns, but to do any or all of the heroic things that they imagine themselves doing with guns.

          •  Ignore Property Rights, Lose Your Civil Rights (0+ / 0-)

            Rousseau said government's main function is the protection of property rights, and this includes democracies.

            And to varying degrees, property rights trump civil rights - burn down my house and your civil rights are forfeit.

            Civil rights are the reward that the citizen gets for respecting the social contract of property owners and the government.

            Even if someone owns nothing, they have to scrupulously respect property rights in order to retain their civil rights.

            There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

            by bernardpliers on Fri May 03, 2013 at 10:56:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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