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  •  I was six when this song hit the charts (24+ / 0-)

    It had a profound impact on me. I was a Peter, Paul and Mary fan from that point forward. I was fortunate enough to be able to personally thank Peter Yarrow for all their music had meant to me when I met him at the King Day March in Atlanta something like a decade ago.  

    Nothing human is alien to me.

    by WB Reeves on Mon May 06, 2013 at 02:02:00 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  they touched a generation, as did many of (17+ / 0-)

      the singers of the 60s... so much passion, so much grief, so much war...

      we need independent outlets again to hear new voices along side the old...

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 02:31:06 AM PDT

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      •  There was (21+ / 0-)

        this diary yesterday, about Bill Moyers' show this week. Peter Yarrow was on with two of the mourning parents from Sandy Hook. Yarrow talked about the healing power of music.

        •  Unfortunately, for healing to take place, (10+ / 0-)

          there has to be an injury first.
          When agents of government perceive themselves as "protectors," there has to be a threat from which people are to be protected, usually after the fact of an injury has occurred.
          Does the perception of protectors contribute to the injurious behavior? It obviously doesn't prevent the attacks. So, what would happen if, instead, agents of government were designated as providers of goods and services, including the restraint of abusive persons? Might injury actually be minimized? We won't know until we try.
          Would agents of government modeling respect for rights be move effective than coercing obedience and prompting resentment? We won't know until we try.

          We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

          by hannah on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:06:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it is an interesting concept. (19+ / 0-)

            years ago, where i bought my sani (horse), the owner of the barn had a horse that the grooms hated.  he was fractious, difficult to handle and groom - but beautiful under saddle.

            this was before robert redford made a mockery out of "horse whispering" (my opinion of his "moonfacing the camera") - anne had a british woman visiting who "read" horses.  while she stepped away, one of the grooms sneered, "what's wrong with THIS one?"

            the very proper british lady put a hand on him, then quickly was startled... she replied, "he thinks his name is SH*THEAD!"

            well, that's what the grooms called him while working with him.  they immediately stopped with the derogatory name and called him his given name - and, guess what!  he became a perfect dream to work with.

            people are what they are called (horses, too).  perhaps the motto "to serve" would better stead our purpose - leaving the "protect" part unsaid.

            it would be interesting to see how it works.  i believe there are several places where pd are called public safety officers - i'm curious if the crime rates dropped when the name/job description changed.  it would be worth the try...

            i think it is more than just respect of rights - it is the respect of persons and individuals - and to do that, we need to have mutual contact where EACH side gets to know the other instead of being faceless adversaries.

            thanks for a good post and food for thought here!

            EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

            by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:21:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Servants can serve without being subordinated (9+ / 0-)

              or insubordinate. But, that's a concept that's hard to get across to people whose sense of purpose is dependent on feeling superior to someone else.

              Perhaps respect and compliance are antithetical concepts.

              We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

              by hannah on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:45:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  First take away their guns (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              edrie, Urizen

              Not necessarily all the time, but I don't see any duty that necessitated a gun that you described in this diary. You can't have an open diary with the threat of a gun being a part of it. That's not dialog. As long as they have the right to kill and kill with impunity then there can't be anything approaching a dialog.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Mon May 06, 2013 at 08:53:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  i understand where you're coming from - but, (0+ / 0-)

                unfortunately, the officers are outgunned by friggin lunatics now.  when an officer is gunned down for a traffic stop, something is very very wrong with society.

                i WANT the chp and the pd out there to stop the crazy drivers who put so many at risk and kill many more.  i appreciate that they get the DUI's off the road - there's been many a time i have wished that for just one day i could do traffic duty.

                as for dialogue - when there are people out there who have little or no regard for human life, the police are there to make sure that more people aren't injured or die.

                look at why i wrote this diary - two people drove by a bus stop and opened fire on the people sitting there - one was a 6 yr old child, the other was her grandmother.

                it was only the sheer ineptness of the two shooters that prevented people from dying.  when the police go after these two people, i don't want them going unarmed.

                e.p.a. has already lost one decent officer on jan 7, 2006.  officer may responded to a disturbance - two men fighting.  he was an awesome guy - he cared deeply about the people in this town.

                when he answered the call, he had a young police explorer (14 yrs old) on a ride along - something the pd does here to let the kids know what the officers do in the community.  it's bridge building.  

                when one of the men tried to run away, officer may tried to stop him.  the man turned around and gunned him down with a semi automatic.  officer may fired back to stop him - but the suspect (now convicted) turned and shot him point blank and killed him.

                this goon was on the streets for hours before he was apprehended.  

                i don't want to see decent people killed - ever.  officer may was a decent man and a damned good police officer who was outgunned and murdered.

                this town turned out in force to honor someone who had made a significant difference in this town - a dedicated officer who left behind his wife and three daughters - and he left this community poorer for his loss.

                sadly, AoT, we live in very violent times - and you can't fight bullets with bare hands.  the number of semi-automatics, the number of guns in this town rival a small army unit.  our police force does an amazing job of keeping people safe as possible with as little use of that "force" as is necessary.

                i wish times were different.  i wish we lived in a "bobby" world - yet, even now, the british bobby carries a gun.  the world has changed.  why?  it's profitable for the makers of killing instruments, so they flood the world with weapons and then instigate conflict to make people need more.

                i wish i never had to read another "tribute" like this one... but, sadly, it isn't going to change in our lifetimes, i fear.  

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 12:25:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Then there can't be a discussion (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Urizen, ZhenRen

                  It's as simple as that. The police have all the power. That's not a discussion and pretending it is helps nothing. What we are talking about is a situation where being a police officer means enforcing racist laws and supporting a racist system. Sure, individuals might do good sometimes, but pretending that the massive prison population doesn't exist or isn't related to the police is absolutely absurd. They are an occupying army enforcing the rule of the few. Whatever the individuals may want or desire when they sign up means nothing to the institution. They will be forced to secure a racist system.

                  As for officers getting killed, yeah, it happens. Do you know why all those guns are on the street? Do you know the history of gun control and the history of racism in this country? Because the police are the primary enforcers of the racist system we have and you're gung ho in support of them. That means you're supporting racism. Plain and simple. Officers get killed because the government has started a war with people of color and the officers are on the front line.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Mon May 06, 2013 at 12:39:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  the police don't have all the power - they simply (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    duhban

                    detain people - the power lies within the courts. that is where the focus should be - on the laws and those who make them.

                    the police officer does NOT have the "luxury" of choosing which laws to enforce or not - and you keep saying "racist laws" - could you please give me an example because i'm not following you here.

                    the prison system and it's population isn't the result of the police - it is the result of biased laws - made by lawmakers who are elected by biased people.

                    this is one of the reasons i harp so much on holding the republicans accountable - they are responsible for many of those same racist, mysogenistic laws.

                    you ask if i know the history of racism?  well, yes, actually, i do.  i come from the segregated south - went to segregated schools where the worst white high school was like college compared to the best black school.  it was a system of diminishing returns for the blacks.  the universities were segregated, leaving only black colleges that were the equivalent of a good white high school - so the ability to obtain a high quality education already was stacked against blacks.

                    the year after i graduated high school, charlotte had the first integrated classes.  my college admitted the first black students my sophmore year - they were welcomed in a college that didn't see the "color" of one's skin - we only saw classmates.

                    but, that said, it doesn't mean i didn't see that color barrier my entire life.  as a child, taking a drink from the barrel that was marked "colored" - i didn't understand because both barrels had water that was clear.

                    i grew up playing with the little girl who was the daughter of our cook.  never thought about her color other than she had a better tan than we did.  ours was a family that didn't see "color" - but as i got older, i saw the discrimination and fear that many southern whites had toward the "unknown".

                    i saw it first hand.  when i moved to ny - again, i never noticed skin color - i saw the person - their minds, their dreams, their passions AND their pain.  i have stood beside more people than you can imagine to fight prejudice - so don't ask me if i understand racism.  i've been fighting bigots my whole life - even to this day.  so, six decades (almost seven) - i've watched, observed, fought racism.  i think my opinion is well qualified based on those facts.

                    as for gun control - the history... i am too tired to list my bona fides on that, but it is nearly equal to the ones on racism.  i'm tired - been up all night - going to sleep now.

                    i'll be back online later, if you want to keep this going - i think it is a good discussion and worth continuing, if you'd like to.

                    catch you later,

                    e

                    EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                    by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 01:25:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  First - Racist laws are the laws (0+ / 0-)

                      that put huge numbers of people of color behind bars. Black American men make up about .5% of the world population and about 15% of the world's prison population. You don't get that without a racist system of laws.

                      the police officer does NOT have the "luxury" of choosing which laws to enforce or not
                      Exactly. They have to enforce unjust laws as they would enforce just laws. And you have no problem with them doing so. You fully support them. Not only that, but if this is true then how can you claim they're all individuals. They are all required to act in the same way by the institution they have chosen to be a part of.
                      the prison system and it's population isn't the result of the police - it is the result of biased laws - made by lawmakers who are elected by biased people.
                      So the people in prison just got their on their own? I mean, someone had to capture them and put them there. That's the job of the police, they enforce laws by capturing people and forcing them to do things. They are the most immediate manifestation of the violence of the government in our day to day lives. Because it's their job to be violent. That's the primary reason for having police. Sure, they do other things as well, but when you look at why they exist, it's to do violence.
                      i grew up playing with the little girl who was the daughter of our cook.  never thought about her color other than she had a better tan than we did.  ours was a family that didn't see "color" - but as i got older, i saw the discrimination and fear that many southern whites had toward the "unknown".

                      i saw it first hand.  when i moved to ny - again, i never noticed skin color - i saw the person - their minds, their dreams, their passions AND their pain.  i have stood beside more people than you can imagine to fight prejudice - so don't ask me if i understand racism.  i've been fighting bigots my whole life - even to this day.  so, six decades (almost seven) - i've watched, observed, fought racism.  i think my opinion is well qualified based on those facts.

                      First, once you were older I'm sure you knew their race. I see what you're trying to say, that you didn't judge them on their race, but I guaranteed you actually did see their race. Which isn't to say you judged them on their race, I'm sure you didn't. I know you well enough to know that you treat people like that. The problem is that not all racism is that sort of explicit bigotry. It's systemic. It's deep and institutional. We can't just act like race doesn't matter because outright bigotry is condemned, we have to focus on the systemic racism that afflicts this country. And the police are on the front line of enforcing that racism.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Mon May 06, 2013 at 01:55:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Also, rest up! Get your energy back. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      edrie

                      Don't get sick or anything.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Mon May 06, 2013 at 01:56:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  still not coherent - will maybe do another diary (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        tomorrow to carry this conversation forward.  but i'll get back to you on this one, too - just not for a while.  am crashing out again fairly soon.

                        not quite the spring chicken i used to be - these all niters aren't as easy as they used to be...

                        8^)

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:38:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  music doeth soothe the savage breast... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          remembrance, HappyinNM

          (not beast, as is often misquoted, btw)...

          music heals - emotions AND it helps speed healing of physical wounds.

          got to go look at that show - thanks for the heads up...

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 05:22:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I was another generation, but my mom (5+ / 0-)

      played piano and taught me this song as a kid. It had a profound impact on me even though it was decades old by then.

      The words hit me in my tiny little gut- they paint such a vivid picture. Music can teach really powerful lessons, and Yarrow was/is a great teacher. We need to teach children  these lessons so that human suffering is not a distant concept to them as adults.

    •  Another Peter, Paul, and Mary fan here. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NapaJulie, edrie, CuriousBoston, WakeUpNeo

      I still have some of their vinyls.

      Their album, "Peter, Paul, and Mommy", the one with Puff the Magic Dragon was downloaded for my Grandson within the first week of bringing him home from the hospital.

      In the time it took Adam Lanza to reload, eleven children escaped. What if...

      by Sixty Something on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:14:03 AM PDT

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      •  heh heh - the debate over that one... puff... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CuriousBoston

        that is.  we were such a clever generation - our parents were so unaware (or so we thought.... like every generation that comes after...)

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Mon May 06, 2013 at 01:28:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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