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View Diary: Let's Teach the Controversy of Evolution vs Intelligent Design **Updated with Poll question** (365 comments)

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  •  Faith is complete trust, not blind acceptance. (0+ / 0-)

    Real faith, real hope, and real love, are not emotions, they are choices.

    "There is no aspect of the universe that requires that one posit the existence of any gods. None."

    Yes there is, I exist.

    As far as miracles are concerned, you are entitled to your choice on the subject. I will choose to disagree, and trust the accounts of eye witnesses to the events that did and still do happen.

    •  Keep making assertions (1+ / 0-)
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      And this is why it isn't possible to argue with true believers.
      Your existence doesn't require a god. Just parents.
      That miracles don't exist is a fact. People see things all the time that they ascribe to the supernatural that are easily disproved like water stains on over passes and burn marks on grilled cheese.
      Can you share with the rest of us an example of a modern day miracle?

      +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

      by cybersaur on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:21:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I suppose the same could be said (1+ / 0-)
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        about the choices of non believers, in a general sense.

        I am curious how the smallest of building blocks that make up my parents just suddenly, randomly came into existence.  Logically speaking, something can never come from nothing, but in order for a godless universe to exist there must be an event where nothing became something. In my opinion that requires much, much more faith, but that is your choice to make.

        I would not classify your examples as miracles; I would classify it as a very small attempt to delegitimize my faith by using absurd examples.

        Providing an example of a miracle to a person that has made their choice that they do not exist would be a fruitless endeavor.

        •  And yet (0+ / 0-)

          You believe that your god has always existed and conjured the the heavens, the Earth and all the flora and fauna out of nothing.
          Your god has First Cause problems that you simply fail to recognize or admit.

          +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

          by cybersaur on Tue May 07, 2013 at 01:19:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's a choice per explanatory power, (0+ / 0-)

          that's all. Any phenomenon for which there is no possible (or just current) physical explanation can be considered 'miraculous' by one person, or simply 'natural-by-unknown- process' to another.

          Spontaneous remission of advanced cancer is a pretty good example. Back in the olden days there were NO treatments for cancer other than surgery to remove tumors. If you had a cancer that didn't involve tumors - like, say, leukemia - you were shit out of luck. Yet in those days when there was no radiotherapy or chemotherapy with which to try and defeat such cancers, the phenomenon of spontaneous remission did noticeably occur. Medicine had no explanations any more than they had treatments that might account for the fact that someone literally on their deathbed got up one morning and went on home, no sign of disease at all.

          Miracle? For many who experienced it, that explanation was plenty good enough to suffice. Even doctors called it that. Others without belief in miracles might choose to believe in a natural (but rare) phenomenon of gene expression suiting that happened to kick in all of a sudden and managed to get rid of the cancer before it killed the patient. Unknown, but not "miraculous." And who knows? Perhaps someday we'll actually know enough about human physiology and cellular processes to produce Spontaneous Remission In A Bottle and it would be worth all the money in the world.

          The "miracle" explanation fits Occam's razor - nothing further is required. The "Natural but Unknown" explanation begs further research in order to try and quantify. Not possible these days when we do have treatments (themselves extremely harmful to physiological processes, but sometimes effective against the immediate threat). So there will probably never be Spontaneous Remission In A Bottle, and that phenomenon will remain a "miracle" by Occam's measure.

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