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View Diary: Has the 'Gay-Rights Movement' been Hijacked by The Fight For Marriage Equality? (108 comments)

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  •  Marriage Equality (17+ / 0-)

    is going to be the path toward changing the entire country's beliefs and attitudes toward gays. It's the "gateway issue". The effect it seems to be having is sort of extraordinary.

    Issues related to housing discrimination and employment discrimination are going to be easier to fight when marriage is settled. It's a long game. Got to start somewhere.

    And I do see plenty of people making arguments about marriage in the context of spousal rights, so I'm not sure why you think that's not happening. I don't see a lot of people claiming this is all about the right to wear a tux or a pretty white dress.

    Twenty some odd years ago people wondered if Ellen DeGeneres coming out would make a difference; I strongly believe that it did. Time marches on, and the younger generation is getting the message.

    •  What about Canada or the Netherlands? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, poco

      As I stated in the article before, many people simply left the movement after marriage-equality was passed in Canada and the Netherlands.

      No where in this article do I state that marriage-equality is bad, and that we shouldn't fight for it. All I am stating that many gay-rights groups don't make the connections to other issues.

      •  Laws are easier to change (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, lgmcp, gramofsam1, roycej, Ahianne

        in those countries. They're Parliamentary democracies. Yes, it was a milestone when those countries legalized marriage but the fight to reach that milestone wasn't as grassroots as it fundamentally has to be in the weirdest constitutional democracy on earth, the good old U.S of A.

        It will take a generation to make marriage equality happen in the US,  due to our strange variety of democratic mechanisms, as well as the unusual social culture of the deep south, and as a result an entire generation will grow up watching this hard-fought battle right in front of them. I wish it didn't have to take this long, but a side effect of it is that our younger citizens are learning every single day how important a major gay rights issue is.

        And the pro athletes are JUST NOW starting to come out. This is just getting started.

        •  Even if marriage equality happenes (4+ / 0-)

          it means nothing for whether (a) homophobia will be addressed and (b) whether other issues will be addressed

          I don't understand the hostility towards this idea

          We have seen it before

          It happened with the AA civil rights movement.

          After a certain points although there were more issues, people stopped wanting to address them here.

          Am I missing something? Why is this idea being attacked as not valid?

          •  Hey (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Richard Lyon, bruh1

            I appreciate your support. I feel like many people don't understand what I'm trying to say. I'm just saying that gay rights organizations should be involved in other campaigns instead of just the fight for marriage equality. No where did I say that I didn't support marriage-equality which many people must think that I did. . Thank you for taking the time to understand the point that I'm trying to get across. :)  

            •  Marriage equality is (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bruh1, alexforgue

              the issue sine qua non for middle class white gay men. While marriage is an important issue for all the other people who live under the LGBT umbrella, it is by no means the only one. For many getting food on the table is more important than having a Martha Stewart wedding.

              •  Agree (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                alexforgue, Richard Lyon

                for the person who doesn't get married and is relying on the income that they made for their Social Security contribution, if they are losing their job due to discrimination over orientation then issues like ENDA are critical.

                Same with immigration being critical in non marriage context for people seeking asylum from countries that will kill,injure or inprison gays whether in the law or in fact

                For them, marriage would not be the solution

                It doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for marriage, but we should underestand that in framing it as the end of all (as you know people like Dan Savage and Andrew Sullivan have done) most straights are not going to care once this over to hear about other issues, and will ask because of the mixed messages "didn't you get what you want? Why are you bothering me with things other htings now?"

              •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                "middle class white gay men". "Martha Stewart wedding".  Way to minimize what should be, at its heart, a basic human right.

                Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

                by lostboyjim on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:40:32 AM PDT

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            •  I think your diary again is pretty clear (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Richard Lyon, alexforgue

              Their reaction is their baggage

              Unless again I m missing something, I don't think there's anything you can do about people projecting ill will onto you when you haven't said anything negative, and frankly even now reading your comment, I am like "there's nothing controversial about what he's saying to me"

              But then, that's because I realize the world is complicated. I can realize that marriage equality is important, and realize other issues are being drowned out at the same time.

              People at this site unfortunately like their world black and white, and emotional, rather t han thought driven. To me, this is not a good place to bring these things up that you are mentioning. Not because you are wrong, but because you are dealing with the wrong audience.

              A friend linked me to this,a nd I decided to respond mostly because people were beating up on you for what seemed like some unknown reason.

          •  what hostility? (0+ / 0-)

            I'm trying to have a rational conversation here. I'm not attacking anyone.

            I'm simply disagree with you. I think you're wrong. Is that not allowed here? Now you have to claim I'm attacking you? Why not just calmly respond to my points?

      •  What are the open issues there? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        What unfinished business is there on LGBT issues in Canada and The Netherlands?  Your point is empty without detail.

        Similarly, which "gay-rights" groups don't make connections to other issues?  And to what degree?

        This diary suffers what my (lesbian) HS Junior English teacher would dismiss as "glittering generalities".  

        IMO, the fight for LGBT rights is being fought on multiple fronts and on multiple levels.  

        The fight for employment non-discrimination is being fought state-by-state, and locality-by-locality, as well as corporation-by-corporation, and class-by-class (don't forget the "T" in LGBT).  Ultimately we need Federal ENDA/GENDA to protect all Americans throughout the country--but we keep fighting "house-to-house".

        On the big picture, each piece reinforces every other.  Every inch of ground we take promotes further progress.  There are many states and localities where LGB protections have been joined by Trans rights. No we are finally seeing initial passage of gender-inclusive non-discrimination laws (and about damn time). Passage of Civil Unions helps to change the public perception and enables full marriage equality later.

        The fight for Civil Rights is a messy business.  Often it is "three steps forward, two steps back".  

        Wherever there is clear evidence that LGBT orgs are "putting all their eggs in one basket" with marriage equality, we need to call them out and demand change.  But LGBT communities are full of a diverse range of organizations fighting for change.  

        I'm sick of handwringing over the purported overemphasis on the fight for repeal of DADT and DOMA.  I'm a middle-aged gay man with one leg who will a) never serve in the military, and b) likely never get married. But I passionately support the fight for both.  

        I also will not rest until full LGBT civil rights has been achieved.

        But can we please stop chasing our collective tail on made-up crises like this?

        (That sound you are hearing is a paradigm being shifted at Warp Factor Infinity using no clutch.)

        by homogenius on Mon May 06, 2013 at 08:38:25 PM PDT

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      •  poor assumption (0+ / 0-)

        You assume that a gay couple that is fighting hard for marriage equality because they want to get married would throw their energy to another fight if it were available.

        The fact is that the marriage equality movement has grown because it is a movement for such a simple, fair right.  There is little guarantee that if Marriage Equality weren't going strong that the people in this fight would naturally shift to another fight.  Most people aren't activists by nature.   If this fight didn't exist, many people without an activist bent wouldn't shift focus, they would just do nothing.  

        For a variety of reason Marriage Equality has drawn in a lot more activism than other parts of the gay rights movement can.  There are lots of reason for that:  to be nice, there is the narcissism of me, to be mean, there is rampant transphobia and misogyny in the gay community.  Right now this movement has vast momentum and energy.  It's not simple to redirect that energy, in facts it might not be possible at all.

        PS:  You keep saying "many gay-rights groups".  Since that's the linchpin of your thesis, you need to give names and examples please.

        Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

        by lostboyjim on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:38:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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