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  •  How so? I know they (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buckeye Nut Schell, essjay, FrankRose

    have had suicides from firearms, but a suicide is indicative of a deeper problem-- a normal, ordinary person isn't going to be compelled to kill himself just because there was a firearm nearby.

    Suicide in society is like Fight Club: first rule is, don't talk about it. That is a serious mistake, and I'm glad the ban on CDC study is lifted since "studying gun deaths" will essentially mean "studying suicide", since something like 2/3rds of gun deaths are exactly that.

    The internet is ruled by cat people. Dog people are busy playing outside.

    by Canis Aureus on Tue May 07, 2013 at 05:01:40 AM PDT

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    •  Yes, a suicide is indicative of a deeper problem.. (11+ / 0-)

      ..but if there's a gun in the house, you're not going to live long enough to cure the deeper problem.

      CoB, looking at the scar on his wrist. Wrists, you see, can be stitched back together. Deeper problem? Well under control. No guns in my parents' house.

      "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

      by ChurchofBruce on Tue May 07, 2013 at 06:19:53 AM PDT

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    •  When you study guns and suicide you learn that (6+ / 0-)

      When you study guns and suicide, you learn that:

       - gun availability is correlated with gun deaths: more guns means more gun deaths, and fewer guns means fewer gun deaths.
       - the lethality of guns makes guns the number 1 choice for committing homicide.
       - the lethality of guns makes guns are the most common instrument of completed suicide.
       - the majority of suicide attempts are done impulsively and are not repeated (i.e. only rarely do people plan to keep trying until they kill themselves).
       - approximate one active duty military service person kills themself every day - the majority of these suicides are completed using a gun.  Suicide now kills more military service personnel than does combat operations (even tho' we are fighting a "global war").  
       - approximately one military veteran kills themself every 65 minutes.  The majority of these suicides are completed using a gun.  One in five completed suicides is a service verteran.
       - suicide is the number 1 cause of death for people who have bought a gun in the past year.  

      You are correct that the ordinary guy is not going to feel compelled to kill thmeself because there is a gun nearby.  But a gun nearby can turn a suicide attempt into a completed suicide.

      What even this cursory study show us is that these horrible statistics can all be reduced simply by decreasing gun availability.  Were the gun industry willing to permit greater regulation of gun sales, we would see a reduction in soldier suicide, veterans suicidie, civilian suicide, and homicide as well.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue May 07, 2013 at 07:55:30 AM PDT

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      •  Yep. Suicide statistics tell a lot. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rigcath, essjay

        Now, these are, of course, estimates, because we don't have an exact count of attempted suicides and never will. Still, the disparity is astounding. (These stats about the USA).

        Suicides attempted by firearm are 75-85% successful.

        The only method that even comes anywhere close to that is hanging, which is about 40% successful.

        Poisoning? 30. Cutting? Less than 20.

        That's right. If your only access is to a  knife, you still have an 80% chance of surviving. If you have access to a gun? Flip those numbers around.

        Suicide happens more often in our country than homicide, and that has held true for many years. It's the 3rd leading cause of death in teenagers, and 2nd for college aged. And it is estimated that the rate of attempt is twenty-five times as large as the rate of success. That's right, for every succeeded suicide, there are 25 attempted but failed. So, the overall success rate is 4%, but the gun success rate is 80%. That tells me that the number one factor in the success of your suicide attempt, at least in the USA, is access to a firearm.

        Guns DO kill suicidal people. Knives and poisons and running into traffic try to kill suicidal people, and fail miserably.

        "Maybe: it's a vicious little word that could slay me"--Sara Bareilles

        by ChurchofBruce on Tue May 07, 2013 at 09:36:16 AM PDT

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        •  Comparing men and women (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChurchofBruce

          In America, women make more suicide attempts than men.  But men complete more suicides than women.  The number 1 choice of suicide means for women are drugs and poisons; the number 1 choice of suicide means for men are guns.

          So even tho' women make more suicide attempts than men, women typically chose a less lethal way to kill themselves, and consequently survive their suicide more often than men.  Men choose a more lethal means to try to kill themselves, and are therefore more likely to actually kill themselves.

          It is the gun that makes the difference between who dies and who lives after a suicide attempt.

          "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

          by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue May 07, 2013 at 10:17:59 AM PDT

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      •  I don't disagree with your premise... (0+ / 0-)

        Reducing gun availability would reduce some of these horrible statistics.  But tell me, how many veterans would you estimate would be denied the ability to purchase a firearm?  

        •  Risks vs. Benefits (0+ / 0-)

          Everything we do in this life carries risks, and has benefits.  Good decision making means thinking about and weighing  the risks and benefits of a course of action.

          I myself am of the opinion that no one should be allowed guns because the risks (100,000 Americans shot every year, 30,000 gun deaths every year, an estimated $17,000 in direct hopsital costs for every shooting injury, tax-payers paying for roughly half of those direct hospital costs, billions in indirect costs for policing, emergency responders, courts and incarceration for gun crimes, etc ) far outweigh the benefits (and just what are the benefits of so many guns? fun for the gun owner? the imaginary safety gun owners think their guns provide them?).

          So if you were to ask me, I would tell you that keeping veterans from owning guns would be a good thing we should be striving for, not a drawback.

          "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

          by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue May 07, 2013 at 10:30:11 AM PDT

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          •  Fair enough... (0+ / 0-)

            I wish more would just be honest enough to just come out and say that ... even though I completely disagree with it.  

            •  Understood. And acceptable to me (0+ / 0-)

              I understand that not everyone agrees with my opinions and my stance on guns.  I imagine that my idea that no one should be allowed guns is shared by only a small minority of Americans; that I am "out of the mainstream" in my thinking about guns.

              I also understand that other people have opinions and thoughts that differ from my own, and that other people believe in the correctness of their own ideas just as firmly as I believe in the correctness of my ideas.

              I enjoy the back and forth of differing opinions, often more so than agreement.  I don't really expect to change anyone's mind, any more than I expect I will be changing my mind.  Occasionally, someone says something that makes me see things in a new or different light, and then my thinking changes to accomadate this new perspective.  It happens, but I don't really expect it.

              It seems to me that with the issue of guns, both pro- and anti-gun sides share a concern with safety ("I need a gun to protect my family from bad guys"; vs. "Too many guns cause needless injury and death").  Maybe the discussion should focus on safety, rather than on gun laws.

               

              "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

              by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue May 07, 2013 at 12:27:35 PM PDT

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              •  I do wish more people were willing (0+ / 0-)

                to discuss it rationally as you do here. Too often, gun diaries here tend to... devolve.

                The internet is ruled by cat people. Dog people are busy playing outside.

                by Canis Aureus on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:47:41 PM PDT

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