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View Diary: Gun Control Works So Well (228 comments)

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  •  I'll take you up on that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrankRose

    I'll go for a country whose government specifically encourages firearms training for children. Where the government sells semi-auto versions of surplus assault rifles. Where the scenes in this Swiss article are commonplace.

    (I can't embed the picture, but the first item in the gallery is what looks like a pair of teenage girls on bicycles with assault rifles slung over their shoulders, on the way to a shooting competition. Another picture is from a shooting event where 13-17 year olds are using assault rifles).

    By all means, reply and tell me how you would prefer that to the laws in the United States. Because I've read the actual Swiss gun laws, not some Wikipedia summary, and as a gun owner, I have no problem with them.

    But the people who get freaked out when they see a weapon in public, I can't see them supporting a system that results in a country with more rifle ranges than golf courses.

    •  Glad you favor universal background (0+ / 0-)

      checks....can you convince the NRA?

      •  Never been a member, seems unlikely (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FrankRose

        And by the way, the Swiss don't have universal background checks. You need a weapon permit, and a private sale requires notification to the government after the fact, not as a precondition for the sale (you had to be checked for the permit, but not for each of the several purchases one permit allows).

        Plus, certain categories of firearms are exempt from the permit process and thus exempt from the background check that is part of the permit process. You still have to notify the authorities of the sale, however.

        Like I said, I have no problem with the Swiss model. But something along the lines of the proposed universal background check in the US is not part of current Swiss gun law.

        •  That is universal background checks (0+ / 0-)
          (you had to be checked for the permit, but not for each of the several purchases one permit allows).
          If you need a permit to purchase a gun, and a background check is used before you get a permit, then a background check is needed before you purchase a gun, but only for the first gun you purchase.

          I would be happy with that system as long as the permit could be revoked after the fact.

          “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom” - Anais Nin

          by legendmn on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:42:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you say so (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            legendmn, KVoimakas

            If you believe that getting a "firearm permit" now and using it to buy your first gun a year from now with no further background check is the same as a "universal background check" at the time of each and every purchase, then I presume you have no objection to changing the language of the laws being proposed to reflect this.

            •  That would make a lot of gun owners happy (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas

              I have a handgun purchase permit from the state of California, as well as a Certificate of Eligibility (a voluntary, notarized form where I submitted extra background information and my fingerprints to the CA Department of Justice and the FBI), and handgun safety instructor's certification (again, notarized with fingerprints and extra information). That's in addition to a 03 FFL from the BATFE, which also involved fingerprints plus filing a copy with the local sheriff's department. All together, this has cost me hundreds of dollars (thankfully spread out over time). And that's not to mention renewal fees.

              I still have to pay for a background check that has a ten day waiting period every time I buy a firearm with the exception of curio and relic firearms, and even then, for handguns, I still have to pay the same Dealer Record of Sale (the background check fee is part of the DROS, no discount).

              I don't know that having one background check ever, or only once every number of years, is the best idea, but I will admit it would certainly be far more convenient and less expensive.

            •  I want something more comprehensive (0+ / 0-)

              but saying that it isn't universal when everyone that has a gun has gone through a background check is not being honest.

              “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom” - Anais Nin

              by legendmn on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:35:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What about those who already own firearms? nt (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                legendmn

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Wed May 08, 2013 at 06:49:24 AM PDT

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                •  We were talking about Switzerland (0+ / 0-)

                  but in the USA, the only legislation likely to pass and not be subject to a constitutional challenge is mandating background checks for all purchases. Mandating background checks for all existing firearms would most likely be unconstitutional and probably unenforceable since there is no national registry of firearms and no way to find out who owns existing firearms.

                  A better plan would be voluntary gun buyback programs, which have been proven to work.

                  “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom” - Anais Nin

                  by legendmn on Wed May 08, 2013 at 07:05:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  The point isn't whether you agree with one thing (0+ / 0-)

      The point here is that the Swiss system is heavily regulated, and you are to use ammunition at the firing range.  

      Whether you get the permit before or after the gun is really a useless response.  It doesn't make a lick of difference, and it only serves to distort the salient fact- Gun enthusiasts who use Switzerland as an example are generally ignorant of the true state of affairs when it comes to guns in Switzerland.

      Streichholzschächtelchen

      by otto on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:35:59 AM PDT

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      •  I'm surprised (0+ / 0-)
        Whether you get the permit before or after the gun is really a useless response.  It doesn't make a lick of difference
        You struck me as someone who believed in pre-purchase background checks, and then you say that whether you check the legality of a purchase before or after the person takes the gun home "doesn't make a lick of difference".

        That's an interesting point of view coming from someone who believes in heavier regulation of firearms laws.

        Gun enthusiasts who use Switzerland as an example are generally ignorant of the true state of affairs when it comes to guns in Switzerland.
        Perhaps, but I'm not one of them. You made a challenge, I took you up on it. Now it's my turn. Would you support a system that put full-auto rifles in tens of millions US homes, considered shooting to be a national sport, had tax-funded marksmanship training for teenagers, and a national shooting competition each year with 8 million publicly gun-toting competitors (which is how big the Swiss competition would be if scaled up to US size).

        Because that is "the true state of affairs when it comes to guns in Switzerland", a nation with a small fraction of the US firearms crime rate. It's an inconvenient truth, but a truth nonetheless.

        You challenged me to not support it. I did. Now it's your turn to agree that the system you dared me to support is a good idea.

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