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View Diary: "Our Government has No Business in Space." True, False, It Depends (100 comments)

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  •  We must explore space (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jamess, Roger Fox

    ...after all, think of all the private property we can claim as the exclusive right of America! New world, indeed! Thankfully we haven't located any life forms to kill yet.

    I'm going to be in dissent here and question this a bit. As long as people are starving, and without homes, and without healthcare, it seems completely lacking in compassion to ignore them and go into space. Now, if we turned all that funding to the purpose of combating climate change and developing renewable energy sources... that would be better.

    We're pretty good at developing technology, not so good at directing it to our real needs.

    But, I don't expect agreement here, in fact I expect ridicule, and I think this space exploration meme has caught up Democrats to the point there will never be any real discussion.

    But I say let's take care of mother earth first before we go fuck up the rest of the universe.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 07:53:29 PM PDT

    •  that is a reasonable argument to be made, ZhenRen (0+ / 0-)


      I would assume you are against ALL Govt Investments,

      just callous, narrow-sighted, profit-based ones.

      •  ... aren't against ... (0+ / 0-)
      •  I would abolish the concept of private ownership (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jamess

        of the means of production. Then everything will be the people's investment.  

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 08:33:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  on paper sure - in reality - the same old (0+ / 0-)

          same old.  There will be no communist revolution in the US, we've been far too well indoctrinated that sharing is not how we do things and the winner takes all.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:48:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That cystal ball you have... (0+ / 0-)

            Must be worth a fortune.

            I don't think we're going to have anarcho-socialism (and with that I've really lost you) anytime soon, but it's rather extremely important to know what the best model should be if we're going to have any idea of what to strive for, and how to compare the value of other ideologies.

            That's why I spend time studying alternatives to capitalism. Even if I won't experience my preference while I'm still alive, it is of enormous value and usefulness to understand how I would prefer my world to be organized, and to have something to measure the existing world against.

            Yeah, I know... to you I'm an idiot, and of course, so is Chomsky, and so was Zinn, and so are a bunch of thinkers who tower above dkos denizens... we're a bunch of fools to you.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:10:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  wow, chip on the shoulder much? (0+ / 0-)

              Talk about who is using the crystal ball here... you don't know anything about me or my political leanings, but you've managed to be completely wrong about all of it.

              I know what all those fancy big words mean and who those authors are - and I've read them too.  I'm just more cynical and less of a smug prick about it.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:55:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I do get tired... (0+ / 0-)

                of the rather narrow thinking around here. I apologize if I seem smug. I'll admit to being irritated around here as of late. People are hurting in the world, there is a lot of injustice, and people seem to be content with their heads in the sand.

                I'm outgrowing this place... I should probably leave. It is not helping me to stick around, and yet I do.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 11:53:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  don't let the door hit you on the way out (0+ / 0-)

                  if you expect me to be butthurt you're "outgrowing" the place.  There are a lot of things I don't agree with here and I certainly get frustrated from time to time - but it doesn't affect what I see as the positives - there are people who share some of my ideals and want to make the world a better place.  Maybe not in the same ways I would - but we aren't clones, we're individuals with our own needs, biases and concepts.  I have to take that into account, no matter how much I want them to just agree I'm right.

                  Humanity - it's like that.

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Tue May 07, 2013 at 12:30:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pure class (0+ / 0-)

                    Exactly what I expected, and you didn't disappoint. I suppose it would be hard for you to outdo your use of "buthurt" but I've got a feeling you actually will.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:02:12 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Looking at this today (0+ / 0-)

                    I will apologize again for my testy attitude. I could have articulated my point of view better than I did.

                    My point isn't that going into space is absolutely wrong, only that when our government ignores poverty, unemployment, climate change, peak oil, and the need to develop renewable energy sources, but keeps spending so much on other programs (the national security state and other military spinoffs, and space programs, etc), it strikes me as unethical.

                    I realize you disagree, and you've explained your reasons, but more must be done about these crises we are faced with, and that is a fact.

                    But there is no need for us to be rude to each other, and for that I apologize.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Tue May 07, 2013 at 11:00:53 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Too late. We've fucked it up and will get (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, Batya the Toon

      shaken heavily back in population and technology sooner than we think.  Hence it is VITAL we consider ways to avoid the potential extinction or second dark ages of our species by pushing space exploration and STEM education all the harder.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 08:17:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we don't change (0+ / 0-)

        We will fuck up any place we go. I don't think it is too late, but I'll admit that once people figure out where we're heading, it likely will be. So, who's going to have a nice new home on Mars? The wealthy class, of course. The same ones who are fucking up our planet. Shall I make a list of who will be on that flight?

        No, let's push to save the earth so that our less fortunate and not so wealthy offspring will have something to look forward to.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 08:31:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, not really - mars isn't comfortable (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Batya the Toon

          You can't just use up the air - there's not enough.  You can't just make air or import an atmosphere.  So the people who will actually LIVE on mars will be the construction workers, miners and the scientists trying to develop the tech to make the nice mars cushy homes when the rich really have no where else to go because earth is shaking them off and uncomfortable.'

          Space will be colonised by nerds and the working class, paid for by the rich.  So make sure your kid is a nerd or a specialist in underwater construction or mining science and technology today.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 09:29:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good luck with that plan (0+ / 0-)

            Bottom line is most humans are goners if we don't make an effort to save what we have.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:03:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  all humans are goners at some point (0+ / 0-)

              we're mortal.  Agreed, we should do what we can to reverse the damage we've done, but to assume that rich people are actually going to ditch us and build a colony with their own hands and no fun stuff for them to exclude other people from shows me you don't know anything about rich people.

              They are NOT about to build and live in early mars habitats - that's for people to build them things they will live in and to have people to exclude when there is enough to entertain them.  

              They have to be SAFE first - so Chaz can't slam the airlock and kill everyone on accident because the keys to his space car got taken away.  So Mumzy can't accidentally kill them all blitzed out of her mind on booze and boredom because there are no exclusive stores on mars.  Because Poppy can't play golf when there is no country club to show off how rich he is to the other rich guys.  All that has to be built first - THEN the rich people will move off world.

              Until then, it's just gated communities in more remote places on earth and bodyguards to keep the riffraff away as society collapses around the rest of us - those that cater to them already will be fine because they will be high enough on the food chain as suppliers of "necessary goods" from a Rich POV to be reachable from their guarded mountain estates.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:20:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And now you instruct me (0+ / 0-)

                about rich people.

                One way or another, elites (perhaps not all wealthy, but still nevertheless most will be well connected) are going to be the ones who end up colonizing space... if we live long enough to see that happen.

                Neither you nor I know the future. The bottom line is most people aren't going anywhere, and we should be doing our best to keep human habitats on this planet, the one most people are stuck with, from being destroyed by climate change.

                That's a no brainer. And that's where we should be putting our greatest effort, and spending our research dollars.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:33:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not "instructing you" so you can put that away (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Batya the Toon

                  I'm just extrapolating from pretty much all recorded human history that the wealthy do not dirty their hands building their paradise - they hire people to do that for them.  So insisting they are going to bum rush off to mars and live in tin shacks trying to remember to check the greenhouse and close the airlocks because they are one accident from death is just patently ridiculous.

                  As I stated, I AGREE that we need to do what we can to keep earth habitable - but without looking outward we WILL die out as a species eventually - either by our own hand or some delightful chunk of rock slamming into our planet because gravity works.  Either situation is bad for the human race as a whole.

                  So why not work on both earth and colonies for the sake of our species now, before we are so scientifically illiterate that rockets become a myth and we just slowly choke here in our own shit?  Why would you rather doom us all to potential extinction because there's been  no worldwide peoples revolution?

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Mon May 06, 2013 at 10:42:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh my... (0+ / 0-)

                    Off in the weeds.

                    I don't mind your star trek dreams. But the way things are going we may not get that far, since some of the world's most brilliant scientists think we may have only another hundred years before there are only a few survivors left as a consequence of global warming. I don't know if that will occur, but it seems wise to focus on what is more certain to happen, rather than worry about meteorites killing us off, which is actually a known element -- we know what's out there and what is coming our way in terms of orbiting bodies.

                    We should focus on saving our species, and the species of hundreds of thousands of other life forms, before worrying about colonizing other planets. But here we are blithely ignoring that, and a host of other things, while spending money on space technology.

                    Even if we were doing both at once, that would be better. But to do one while virtually ignoring the other is... stupid and insane.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Mon May 06, 2013 at 11:50:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  so nice you don't mind... (0+ / 0-)

                      the fact that I give a shit about our species.

                      We mostly know what is coming our way.  We don't at this time have the capacity to do anything about it should a little gravity tweak put us in the path of something nasty that puts chimps in shoes with the dinosaurs.

                      I think we have to do both - and not all of anything will survive.  That's how life works.  Just because we live in a bubble and refuse to recognise our own potential mortality doesn't mean we should just ignore the drive some of us have to reach beyond this world.

                      We spend almost nothing on space technology.  Less than a nickle per dollar goes to NASA.  Enormous gains in knowledge have come out of that shoestring budget - things that benefit humans here and now on this planet - that's hardly a waste in my book.

                      But hey, if you want to pretend that is draining our budget and has no value because you choose not to see it - knock yourself out.  No one is going to stop you - certainly not me.

                      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                      by Mortifyd on Tue May 07, 2013 at 12:15:13 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So far... (0+ / 0-)

                        that "drive" you speak of has been, in the long view of history, killing us due to the hubris of men playing god with the universe.

                        A little less machismo and drive and a little more nurturing and caring for the earth would be nice to see right about now, to balance out the destruction of the last century.

                        Not saying you're 100% wrong, but overall, my point is a valid one.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Tue May 07, 2013 at 02:10:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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