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  •  Link? (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

    "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

    by TealTerror on Sat May 11, 2013 at 04:05:57 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Here's a good place to... (0+ / 0-)

      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

      by richardak on Sat May 11, 2013 at 07:35:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Greenwald's tweet says (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BradyB
        Would be fascinating to watch the GOP candidate be to Obama's left on war/foreign policy, many civil liberties & criminal justice/Drug War
        (emphasis added)

        That's hardly "hitching his wagon" to Ron Paul and "trying to paint him as the 'progressive.'" It's trying to paint Paul as the progressive on certain issues. Disagreeing with his point is fine, but don't misrepresent it.

        Do you have a link that shows Greenwald supporting Ron Paul not just on specific issues but in general?

        "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

        by TealTerror on Sat May 11, 2013 at 09:54:59 PM PDT

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        •  I never said that he supported Paul in general... (0+ / 0-)

          only that he was portraying him as the progressive and by that, in comparison to Obama. Quoting from his Salon post...

          Whatever else one wants to say, it is indisputably true that Ron Paul is the only political figure with any sort of a national platform — certainly the only major presidential candidate in either party — who advocates policy views on issues that liberals and progressives have long flamboyantly claimed are both compelling and crucial. The converse is equally true: the candidate supported by liberals and progressives and for whom most will vote — Barack Obama — advocates views on these issues (indeed, has taken action on these issues) that liberals and progressives have long claimed to find repellent, even evil.

          The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

          by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 12:30:32 AM PDT

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          •  Again, this is just wrong (0+ / 0-)
            only that he was portraying him as the progressive and by that, in comparison to Obama.
            He was portraying Ron Paul as the progressive on certain issues. In the quote you provided as well:
            Barack Obama — advocates views on these issues (indeed, has taken action on these issues) that liberals and progressives have long claimed to find repellent, even evil.
            (emphasis added)

            And, somewhat ironically (and in his usual abrasive style, naturally), he also said this in the post you linked:

            Hence: I’m about to discuss the candidacies of Barack Obama and Ron Paul, and no matter how many times I say that I am not “endorsing” or expressing support for anyone’s candidacy, the simple-minded Manicheans and the lying partisan enforcers will claim the opposite.
            (emphasis not added)

            Look, it's 100% accurate to say "Greenwald portrayed Ron Paul as the progressive candidate on foreign policy, civil liberties, and drug policy." It is misleading in the extreme to merely say "Greenwald portrayed Ron Paul as the progressive candidate."

            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

            by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 07:03:31 AM PDT

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            •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

              He's portrayed Obama as a Republican, and an evil monster on a regular basis. From that, Paul for me came away as the overall winner in the Greenwald progressive sweepstakes, but I guess that's just me.

              I wouldn't expect Greenwald to endorse anyone anytime since that would conflict with his gadfly aspirations. Moreover, as I recall, he's never voted in any election, anyway.

               

              The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

              by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 10:34:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I notice you didn't quote anything (0+ / 0-)

                from that article you linked. Let me do it for you:

                The president's 2009 stimulus spending and Wall Street "reform" package – tepid and inadequate though they were – are genuinely at odds with rightwing dogma, as are Obama's progressive (albeit inconsistent) positions on social issues, such as equality for gay people and protecting a woman's right to choose. And the supreme court, perpetually plagued by a 5-4 partisan split, would be significantly affected by the outcome of the 2012 election.
                Wow, what a libertarian!

                I would ask you to provide a link of Greenwald portraying Obama as an "evil monster," but I'll assume that's hyperbole.

                From that, Paul for me came away as the overall winner in the Greenwald progressive sweepstakes, but I guess that's just me.
                In your original comment, you said nothing about your personal feelings, or that you merely got that impression because Greenwald said Paul was better on some issues and he criticizes Obama a lot. You said he hitched his wagon to Ron Paul. All I'm saying is that your original statement was factually inaccurate.
                Moreover, as I recall, he's never voted in any election, anyway.
                The only thing I could find on a quick Google search was the intro to his book, where he says his pre-political self didn't vote in 2000. I'm not sure if he's ever stated whether or not he's voted since, but he did raise money for Russ Feingold, Bill Halter, etc.

                Again, I have no problem with you disliking Greenwald or attacking his positions. But he's been very clear in his posts about Ron Paul that he only supports Paul on civil liberties, foreign policy, and drug war issues. Please understand that if you got the impression Paul won "the Greenwald progressive sweepstakes," it's because those are precisely the issues he most often writes about--that doesn't mean they're the only ones he thinks matter.

                "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 11:49:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hyperbole? According to Greenwald's Salon post (0+ / 0-)

                  that I linked to upthread, Obama

                  has slaughtered civilians — Muslim children by the dozens — not once or twice, but continuously in numerous nations with drones, cluster bombs and other forms of attack.
                  How is that not the act of an evil monster?

                  The choice Greenwald gave us is between a man with admitted flaws but some admirable progressive stances and a man with some different progressive stances who also happens to be a mass murderer.

                  The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                  by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 12:38:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Obama's drones did, and do, kill civilians (0+ / 0-)

                    It certainly wasn't, and isn't, intentional killing so I wouldn't call it "murder." Whether or not that makes him an 'evil monster' or a 'mass murderer' is up to you. In any event, Greenwald himself calls Obama neither of those things.

                    It remains the case that, contra your original point, Greenwald never endorsed, hitched his wagon to, or otherwise supported Ron Paul's candidacy as a whole.

                    "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                    by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 01:34:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're arguing about the parsing of words. (0+ / 0-)

                      if someone repeatedly lists the horrors someone is responsible for (the activities of Obama's military being a popular Greenwald topic) , somehow I don't think it's much of stretch to assume that the writer believes the person being described is evil without his having to use the exact word, particularly when he uses words like slaughter to describe those horrors.

                      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                      by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 01:51:55 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There is a very big difference (0+ / 0-)

                        Between believing someone engages in evil actions and believing someone is personally evil. I believe Obama engages in evil actions, but I don't believe he himself is evil because almost anyone else in his position would probably do the same thing. The evil lies in the system, not in the person.

                        "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                        by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 01:57:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The system or Obama? Greenwald himself... (0+ / 0-)

                          obviously holds the latter personally responsible, given what he's written. He's not saying "the system" slaughtered children. He's saying Obama did.

                          The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                          by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 02:21:20 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Again, there's a difference between responsiblity (0+ / 0-)

                            and being personally evil. Can you really not see the difference between these two views?

                            (a) Obama has engaged in evil actions and is responsible for them.
                            (b) Obama is an evil monster.

                            Plenty of good, moral people have engaged in evil actions. Obama's not the first and won't be the last.

                            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                            by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 02:27:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Tell that to Greenwald. (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't see him making that distinction.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                            by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 02:42:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I still await a quote (0+ / 0-)

                            where Greenwald says Obama is personally evil.

                            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                            by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 03:16:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Obama is the slaughterer of children (0+ / 0-)

                            Beyond evil, what other possible word would you use to describe such a person?

                            Do you think that Greenwald would use such rhetoric if his message was "sometimes good people have to do bad things if they are a leader"?  Can you point to any article where Greenwald has written such an apologetic with respect to Obama?

                            Of course, Greenwald has indeed used the "evil" word. Quoting your own quote from a few comments back...

                            Barack Obama — advocates views on these issues (indeed, has taken action on these issues) that liberals and progressives have long claimed to find repellent, even evil.
                            Your response to this I guess would be along the lines of "but he's not saying that he thinks that Obama is evil but that progressives might or should", however that's in the same article using the word slaughter in reference to Obama.

                            Quite frankly, one of the reasons I have no respect for Greenwald is his weaselly style of writing, where he tries to frames things in such a way as to try and make it look like he is straddling a fence when his harsh attacks make it clear that he actually isn't.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                            by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 04:18:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Most American Presidents (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BradyB

                            slaughtered children. It is actually irrelevant whether they were personally good or evil. I don't get why you're so hung up on this.

                            Do you think that Greenwald would use such rhetoric if his message was "sometimes good people have to do bad things if they are a leader"?
                            That's not what I said. I said that the system itself--that being the American Presidency--is inherently evil (in some ways) and that literally anyone who occupied the office would commit evil acts. Since Greenwald has said several times he doesn't think electoral politics by itself will solve the problem, I wouldn't be surprised if he believes this too.
                            Your response to this I guess would be along the lines of "but he's not saying that he thinks that Obama is evil but that progressives might or should",
                            No, my response is that he only said Obama advocates evil views, not that the President himself is evil.

                            How many times must I say that there's a difference between saying someone does or advocates evil things, and saying someone is personally evil? There are plenty of reasons a good/non-evil person might do evil things. Greenwald doesn't have to list them every time he criticizes Obama's actions, even if it's harsh criticism, because the point is not why Obama does what he does, but the actions themselves.

                            From what I can see not knowing the man personally, the President appears to be a great husband and father, a good friend, and a generally stand-up guy I would enjoy being around. Many of his actions as President are good, but many are evil. If you're offended that Greenwald criticizes his evil actions using harsh language, maybe politics isn't for you.

                            Quite frankly, one of the reasons I have no respect for Greenwald is his weaselly style of writing, where he tries to frames things in such a way as to try and make it look like he is straddling a fence when his harsh attacks make it clear that he actually isn't.
                            Greenwald is a radical. He doesn't try to hide it. He criticizes everyone. So I'm not sure what you're saying here.

                            The "funny" thing is, his articles on Obama are actually relatively light on the personal attacks (for him). If you want to see him go after people he genuinely despises, skim through this sometime. Trust me, as a long-time follower of Greenwald, he never hesitates to go for the personal attack (not one of his positive qualities)--so if he sticks to criticizing Obama's actions and not the person himself, that really does tell you something.

                            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                            by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 06:08:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hooo-boy...... (0+ / 0-)
                            No, my response is that he only said Obama advocates evil views, not that the President himself is evil.
                            There's nothing left to do now but shake my head.

                            The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

                            by richardak on Sun May 12, 2013 at 06:33:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think austerity is evil (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BradyB

                            It causes enormous amounts of suffering. I assume you agree. Do you think, then, that everyone who advocates for austerity is an evil person?

                            "He, O men, is the wisest, who, like Socrates, knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing."--Socrates

                            by TealTerror on Sun May 12, 2013 at 07:27:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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