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  •  Glenn Greenwald - UGH (20+ / 0-)

    Greenwald is wishy-washy with me.  He makes great points at times but I find he's really naive.

    Look at this article Greenwald wrote after the Democratic National Convention:  

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

    But the collective bloodlust on display over the last week, especially Thursday night, was nothing short of creepy. Even in those instances in which state killing is justified and necessary, it ought to be a sombre and regrettable affair (as many Democrats righteously argued when some attendees at a GOP debate cheered Texas Governor Rick Perry's touting of his execution record). Boastful, raucous, nationalistic crowd-chanting at every single mention of someone's corpse, even when that someone is Osama bin Laden, is warped.

    But, more importantly, it's a depressing symbol of America's political culture. The premise seems to be that – aside from this specific corpse and the others the president has piled up – there is little else for ordinary Americans to celebrate now when it comes to the search for nationalistic achievement, purpose and greatness among their political leadership. That this dark premise appears valid is what is most disturbing of all.

    My reaction to Glenn Greenwald is this:  Where have you been since the November 2008?  The Democrats have been cleaning up President Bush's mess!

    Secondly, the whole "USA USA USA" went BEYOND just the Obama Bin Laden raid.  The chant also happened during some of President Obama's rallies when he talked about the auto industry growth since the bailout.

    I think Greenwald needs to do his research better.

    •  Great example. . . (4+ / 0-)

      Thanks for posting that, I had missed it and I agree with your point. His sentiment is well meaning but he does seem to miss the difference between the "killing of Bin Laden" and completing the mission to ensure he didn't continue to get away with it.

      As he had for 7 years under Bush. . .

      Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the meek and the sick. Message to Repug Fundies: "DO you really wonder "what would Jesus do?" I didn't think so.

      by 4CasandChlo on Sat May 11, 2013 at 03:47:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Chanting USA! during other stuff makes (8+ / 0-)

      chanting USA! and cheering over news of killing Osama not bloodthirsty weirdness?

      Boastful, raucous, nationalistic crowd-chanting at every single mention of someone's corpse, even when that someone is Osama bin Laden, is warped.
      That is exactly fucking right. And just because they did it for a car company doesnt' change that.

      And you honestly cannot STILL be laying this all on Bush. Obama's disastrous, wrongheaded, unbelievably dangrous and deadly surge in Afghanistan, just for starters, made Afghanistan his. And there is much more on that front. We all know how awful Bush was - but you 've got to stop this.

      •  I am still laying this on Bush (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fou, doroma, indie17, poco

        And I'm sticking with it so no, I'm not going to stop this.  I'm not a dumbass.

        But look at things in perspective here.  You're getting off in a tangent.

        On Greenwald's argument again in which I think you're still not understanding my counter argument: First of all, President Obama's foreign policy has been more focused than President Bush's foreign policy and is more inclusive (although not perfect by any means) and unlike President Bush, Obama has real intelligent people running the State Department as opposed to tools like Condoleeza Rice.

        The "USA USA USA" chant did occur in more than one context during the 2012 Presidential campaign in Obama's rallies.  Sure, the context here in the Democratic National Convention but it pointed out that under President Obama's presidency, the U.S. DID achieve its objectives and there was a REAL Mission Accomplished as opposed to President Bush's Mission Accomplished back in the day.

        So basically, the Democratic Party and John Kerry as Greenwald cited for his argument have reclaimed the national security mantel because unlike the GOP, the Democratic Party knows how to frickin handle foreign policy, national security and not shoot itself in the foot and become complete dumbasses like the GOP did with its continued funding (of course that doesn't leave out the naive Democrats who did vote for the October 2002 Iraq War Resolution) for the Iraq War and no checks & balances transparency in Congress.  

        Now does Obama have challenges with Afghanistan today?  I'm not a dumbass to think that his policy is completely successful or right on track.  I'm against it to be frank.  However, even if the U.S. didn't continue the war in Afghanistan, the situation itself is still complex that there needs to be involvement in the country somehow, even on a non-combat basis at minimum.  That's still, as a result, of President Bush abandoning the hunt for Osama Bin Laden and focusing on the Iraq War.  Remember that?  Hopefully you still do.

        With all the problems going on in the U.S. government today and with the foreign policy challenges these days, it's hard for me to blame President Obama (and to be frank, I can criticize him at times just like any other Kossack) without realizing who created this problem in the first place:

        President Bush and the Republican Party.

        Just think about it:  What if President Bush was never in office?  Do you honestly think by the process of osmosis that we'd be dealing with the same crap as we're dealing with today?

        •  One at a time: (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          No Exit, Words In Action, BradyB
          I am still laying this on Bush (2+ / 0-)
          And I'm sticking with it so no, I'm not going to stop this.  I'm not a dumbass.

          +

          President Bush and the Republican Party.

          Just think about it:  What if President Bush was never in office?  Do you honestly think by the process of osmosis that we'd be dealing with the same crap as we're dealing with today?

          Well, why not put it on the British and just say no American has any responsibility ever for anything in the ME? I mean that is really irresponsible. Bush WAS president. He did leave a mess, and there were options for how to deal with it. By your logic - we get to criticize Obama on NOTHING. Come on, man. Obama himself would not support you on this. (And there were a really lot of good smart people who spoke up in opposition to the dfreadful surge decision. We got NOTHING from that but death and more enemies.
          because unlike the GOP, the Democratic Party knows how to frickin handle foreign policy, national security and not shoot itself in the foot
          Are you fucking kidding me? Have you read ANYTHING about Afghanistan? How about Pakistan? Or Iraq, for that matter. Never mind the drones!

          As far as the chanting thing - I don't even know what the ehll your'e talking about anuymore. GG had a pretty simple point, and one I think you agree with, about macabre death clebrating.

          •  And you didn't read my comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            indie17, SoCalSal
            I'm not a dumbass to think that his policy is completely successful or right on track.  I'm against it to be frank.
            Please do a favor and be a good Democrat and read my comments effectively before you make your point.  We can't have it both ways by saying we're better than the GOP when we can't even read and interpret each of our own arguments effectively.
          •  I've watched just about every Obama '12 rally (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            indie17
            As far as the chanting thing - I don't even know what the ehll your'e talking about anuymore. GG had a pretty simple point, and one I think you agree with, about macabre death clebrating.
            I do know what the "ehll" I'm talking about.  And it's HELL, not EHLL.  You can take your time in responding to my comments.  We're fellow Democrats, come on here.

            President Obama had a rally the day after his speech at the Democratic National Convention when he was talking about the auto bailout and when he was talking about how this accomplishment, there were chants of "USA USA USA" in the crowd in relationship to that.  I posted this piece of evidence to a friend, a fellow socialist living in Roy, UT, who incidentally pointed out to me the same Glenn Greenwald article that I cited.  Greenwald isn't a bad writer but he shouldn't get a pass with his arguments.  If I have reason to believe they're a bit far fetched as I've stated so, then I will point them out.

            I'm really not sure what Pakistan, Afghanistan or even the drones has anything to do with tying into the original argument I'm making.  We're talking about Greenwald's argument, not what we have to blame Obama for.

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