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View Diary: Bob Gates calls criticism of response to Benghazi attack 'cartoonish view of military capabilities' (95 comments)

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  •  here's a clue (2+ / 0-)
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    4CasandChlo, kyril

    regime change operations tend to be about imposing what we want on another country. the libyans fighting gaddafi asked for our help. in the aftermath, libyans approve of america at anomalous rates. it is no more too early to say that libya is better off without qaddafi than it is to say that egypt, despite its ongoing problems, is better off without mubarak.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon May 13, 2013 at 11:57:41 AM PDT

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    •  It is, in fact, too early to say this (2+ / 0-)
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      divineorder, eparrot
      egypt, despite its ongoing problems, is better off without mubarak.
      It'll be years before we know what comes next in these countries. Believe me, I work with activists in Egypt who, though they celebrated and celebrate still, Mubarak's fall are greatly fearful about what's happening there.

      The difference, of course, is that in Egypt, the people rose up against a U.S. backed-dictator and overthrew him. In Libya, the US and NATO illegally entered into a civil war to overthrow a dictator.  

      •  believe me (1+ / 0-)
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        kyril

        i have an egyptian activist friend who is quite happy that mubarak is gone.

        and once again you're just flat wrong. libya was just like egypt, except that qaddafi was ready to do what mubarak wasn't. and the libyans fighting qaddafi asked for help. you somehow keep ignoring that.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Mon May 13, 2013 at 12:17:33 PM PDT

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        •  My last comment (0+ / 0-)

          You can both be happy that a dictator is gone and uncertain that what comes next will be better.

          The fact that Libyans, to the extent that this can be gauged, asked for our help is relevant, as are the lives saved immediately in Benghazi (even if the number is often exaggerated; Qaddafi, despite his rhetoric, didn't engage in mass slaughter in other places he'd captured.) Contrary to your claims, I've never denied the arguments for intervention. But to me those just didn't and don't outweigh the likely downsides, given the history of military interventions, esp. in this part of the world.Gary Younge:

          The call from Libyan rebels for a no-fly zone matters. Those who are resisting Qaddafi deserve our support. But they don’t single-handedly determine the nature of it. Solidarity is not a process by which you unquestioningly forfeit responsibility for your own actions to another; it involves an assessment of what is prudent and what is possible. The left should not be in denial that nonintervention could have meant defeat for the Libyan revolution...

          But neither should we be browbeaten with accusations that by opposing military intervention, we are in effect supporting Qaddafi—particularly not by supporters of states who were until recently arming him.... If Qaddafi goes, we have no idea what ethnic and regional rifts will emerge. What victory looks like under these circumstances is anybody’s guess.

          Far from being a knee-jerk response to Western military action, opposition to the bombing marks a considered reflection on the West’s knee-jerk impulse to mistake war for foreign policy. This impulse follows a well-worn circular logic in three parts: (1) Something must be done now. (2) This is something. (3) So we must do it. And that something invariably involves bombing.

          •  some of us (2+ / 0-)
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            wadingo, aimeehs

            are capable of taking situations case by case.

            and maybe you don't remember that qaddafi's security forces already had massacred hundreds, in benghazi itself. maybe you don't remember his speech urging his supporters to attack the "cockroaches" who were opposing him. maybe you don't remember where we had previously heard that kind of language.

            the only knee-jerk response has been by those who continue to look for every possible reason to criticize what's happening in libya, including citing racist loons to back their case. the only knee-jerk response has been by those who need to be dragged into acknowledging that it's a good thing the brutal dictator is gone.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Mon May 13, 2013 at 12:46:34 PM PDT

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