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View Diary: Shock Doctrine: While RW screams conspiracy theories House GOP votes to END OVERTIME PAY for workers (177 comments)

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  •  I was correct. Follow the link. (3+ / 0-)

    The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

    by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:38:30 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I would love to be able to earn comp time (0+ / 0-)

      Not saying I would always chose to take time over $$$ but I'd love to have that option - kids aren't getting any younger.

      The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

      by ctexrep on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:51:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here is the point... (49+ / 0-)

        Employers will force employees to "Choose" comp time and then allow them to "Choose" when to take that comp time when they allow it (probably all on the same day, locking out individuals who have not "earned" it.

        It is a corporate give-away of the worst kind.  How often do people have choices at work if they want to keep their job?  Even if your employer is nice and allows you to work an additional 8 hours this week for a day off, whenever you want it, most will not.

        They will schedule a comp day so they can turn off the lights and save the electricity.  This will probably be during a slow period when they could maximize their benifit.  They get to pay straight time for the overtime they exchanged for it.  Those who have not volunteered for comp time will be forced to take a day off without pay.

        There is no up side for the employee here.  They will work for free on hours beyond 40 so they can take time off when it is convenient for the employer.  Think about the Christmas rush.  Employees will be working crazy "free" overtime from November through December and then given comp time in February and March.  

        And what happens when they lay people off with comp time still on the books?  Is their unemployment benefits delayed while they use up their comp time?

        Horrible policy and horrible people who proposed it.

        "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

        by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue May 14, 2013 at 10:50:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why are you working OT now? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        chuckvw, Klusterpuck, TracieLynn, DuzT

        If you prefer time over $ then why not refuse the OT? Perhaps negotiate for less hours?  

        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

        by tardis10 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 12:16:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  For the extra money? (8+ / 0-)

          The point is, most people take the OT because they need the money.

          This law says the employers no longer have to give you that choice, period.

          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

          by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:39:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It doesn't say that. Did you read the bill? (0+ / 0-)

            The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

            by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 02:22:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, for fuck's sake (8+ / 0-)

              the deliberate obtuse around here is jaw-dropping in its current, Tea-Party-like incarnation.

              No, it doesn't say that. Yes, I read the bill. Here it is.

              Section 7 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 207) is amended by adding at the end the following:

                  ‘(s) Compensatory Time Off for Private Employees-

                      ‘(1) GENERAL RULE- An employee may receive, in accordance with this subsection and in lieu of monetary overtime compensation, compensatory time off at a rate not less than one and one-half hours for each hour of employment for which overtime compensation is required by this section.

                      ‘(2) CONDITIONS- An employer may provide compensatory time to employees under paragraph (1)(A) only if such time is provided in accordance with--

                          ‘(A) applicable provisions of a collective bargaining agreement between the employer and the labor organization that has been certified or recognized as the representative of the employees under applicable law; or

                          ‘(B) in the case of employees who are not represented by a labor organization that has been certified or recognized as the representative of such employees under applicable law, an agreement arrived at between the employer and employee before the performance of the work and affirmed by a written or otherwise verifiable record maintained in accordance with section 11(c)--

                              ‘(i) in which the employer has offered and the employee has chosen to receive compensatory time in lieu of monetary overtime compensation; and

                              ‘(ii) entered into knowingly and voluntarily by such employees and not as a condition of employment.

                      No employee may receive or agree to receive compensatory time off under this subsection unless the employee has worked at least 1,000 hours for the employee’s employer during a period of continuous employment with the employer in the 12-month period before the date of agreement or receipt of compensatory time off.

              Let's be completely clear. What this says in so many words but does not say outright  is that an Employer does not have to pay you fucking overtime. You can work more than 40 hours and he does not have to pay you OT wages.

              Do you support that? Because if you do, you are a sorry excuse for a Democrat.

              "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

              by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 02:40:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I didn't think he was a Democrat (3+ / 0-)

                I have never seen a progressive post out of him yet.

                or her, who knows.......

              •  Try again. (0+ / 0-)
                An employee may also request in writing that monetary compensation be provided, at any time, for all compensatory time accrued that has not yet been used

                The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

                by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 03:44:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, you try again (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MKSinSA

                  Care to point out the exact verbiage that requires the employer to comply with that request?

                  "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                  by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:28:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Certainly (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MKSinSA

                    This:

                    (4) PRIVATE EMPLOYER ACTIONS- An employer that provides compensatory time under paragraph (1) to employees shall not directly or indirectly intimidate, threaten, or coerce or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any employee for the purpose of--

                                    ‘(A) interfering with such employee’s rights under this subsection to request or not request compensatory time off in lieu of payment of monetary overtime compensation for overtime hours; or

                                    ‘(B) requiring any employee to use such compensatory time.

                    and this"
                    SEC. 3. REMEDIES.

                        Section 16 of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (29 U.S.C. 216) is amended--

                            (1) in subsection (b), by striking ‘(b) Any employer’ and inserting ‘(b) Except as provided in subsection (f), any employer’; and

                            (2) by adding at the end the following:

                            ‘(f) An employer that violates section 7(s)(4) shall be liable to the employee affected in the amount of the rate of compensation (determined in accordance with section 7(s)(6)(A)) for each hour of compensatory time accrued by the employee and in an additional equal amount as liquidated damages reduced by the amount of such rate of compensation for each hour of compensatory time used by such employee.’.

                    Anything else I can help you with?

                    The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

                    by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:34:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, you can. (4+ / 0-)

                      nowhere does this compel the employer to PAY OVERTIME WAGES.

                      It says:

                      shall not directly or indirectly intimidate, threaten, or coerce or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any employee for the purpose of--

                                      ‘(A) interfering with such employee’s rights under this subsection to request or not request compensatory time off

                      In other words, the employer cannot tell the employee he can't request it.

                      And while you're at it, tell us EXACTLY HOW the employee should "collect" under this pile of verbal diarrhea:

                      ‘(f) An employer that violates section 7(s)(4) shall be liable to the employee affected in the amount of the rate of compensation (determined in accordance with section 7(s)(6)(A)) for each hour of compensatory time accrued by the employee and in an additional equal amount as liquidated damages reduced by the amount of such rate of compensation for each hour of compensatory time used by such employee.’.
                      You can admit you're full of shit, for starters. Nowhere does this compel an employer to actually PAY overtime WAGES. The closest it comes is to say "liquidated damages", which infers that the employee has to sue to get said damages.

                      So try again. If you're going to continue to insist it says something it doesn't, you'll continue to be lying.

                      "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                      by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 04:50:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I didn't think you could (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jbsoul, cassidy3

                      show exactly where an employer is compelled to pay OT wages.

                      Because the language used does not compel that.  

                      I'd like to see the person who rec'd you show this, since you can't.

                      "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                      by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:08:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can't teach you to read within the constraints (0+ / 0-)

                        of a comment box, especially when you don't want to learn.   You have decided it means what you think it means.  End of dialogue.

                        The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

                        by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:12:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, I didn't think you could (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          jbsoul

                          why bother continuing to jerk off in a thread you've had your ass handed to you in? Run away, little spammer. Just run away....

                          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                          by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:14:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The obligation to pay wages is not an obligation (0+ / 0-)

                            that is addressed in this law, which only permits an employee to request comp time in lieu of wages.   The obligation to pay wages for time worked is addressed in other laws and regulations.   I can't show you, in the text of the law, where the obligation to pay an employee wages for time worked arises. It's not there.   I shouldn't have to show you that, as no one can seriously question whether or not you are entitled to be paid for your work.

                            The law says that the employer may not require the employee to make the choice to take comp time in lieu of wages.  If the employee rescinds a request to take comp time in lieu of compensation, the law expressly states that the employer must pay the employee.  

                            You are quite rude and ignorant.   Now, I will run away, swiftly, as I chose not to interact with you anymore.

                            The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

                            by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:24:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course you can't! (0+ / 0-)

                            Yet you insisted that is what it said. So you lied and/or you were wrong.

                            And now you're really going away this time.  Right?

                            "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

                            by lunachickie on Tue May 14, 2013 at 06:31:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  Long explanation, but here goes (61+ / 0-)

      So we give employees the option of earning NOT money, which options do you think employeers will encourage their workers to choose? Will there be pressure or intimidation to choose NOT money for overtime instead of money. I can't imagine a corporation like Walmart pressuring their employees, can you?

      Then we have more people working for NOT money, how will they have disposable income to put back into the economy and raise their standard of living? Oh, they won't! Well, I guess that might help the economy in some way, or something.

      So more and more businesses start offering "the option" to work overtime for not money, and when that practice gets more universal do you think House Republicans will eventually try to end overtime altogether and go back to a pre-Great Depression kind of economy with no overtime pay laws at all? Nah, House GOP would never go that far. It's not like they are totally bugfuck crazy or anything like that.

      This is how the unions died, this is how the middle class died, by giving a little here, a little there, an exception here, a new "option" there. Why not overtime AND paid time off? Why settle for the scraps from Longshanks Cantor's table when you've missed your God given right to something better, like overtime pay! (sorry for Braveheart reference, couldn't help myself)

      I am against this idea because it is simply the beginning of GOP nicking away at overtime pay laws, it's how they plan to kill Social Security and Medicare, make it do less and be less available and then when it is time to kill it altogether no one will care or notice.

      I mean, its' not like the GOP hasn't used this "death by a thousand cuts" idea elsewhere. This is SOP. Corporate profits at record highs, wages are at record lows, the only way to keep corporate profits at record highs like this is to keep workers wages at record lows. That is the reason why this bill was proposed. That way we can all have a job, low paying jobs with no overtime where you have to work extra hours just to get hours off. Fuck we might as well give people the option to enter indentured servitude while we are at it!

      It's a shit plan, and I'm against it for the reasons listed above and more. I hope that helps clarify things a bit, SpamNunn.

      Cheers

      Regulate banks, not vaginas

      by MinistryOfTruth on Tue May 14, 2013 at 09:53:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bingo. (19+ / 0-)

        Employees will face a double-whammy: not only will they be pressured into taking comp time, but undoubtedly some workers will be afraid to take that comp time because they think it will make them look bad to management.

        I see the same thing where I work all the time: somebody works a weekend, gets no OT pay but is entitled to comp time, but then never takes the comp time primarily out of fear of looking like they are lazy or a troublemaker.

      •  Why not overtime AND paid time off? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GAS, Klusterpuck, DuzT

        Why not?

        Hey, let's put some lawn chairs out, call in the caterers and a beer truck and have a big party.....probably a going away party.

        God forbid employees get to choose whether they want OT pay or time off....if you want to tweak the law - accrue comp time at 1.5 just as you would get paid.....1.5 days off for every 1 day worked.

        Nah.....I just want to work 60 hours every week without getting extra time off.....that way I'll have a lot of cash to bring to the grave with me.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Tue May 14, 2013 at 11:40:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's exactly what the bill provides for. (0+ / 0-)
          God forbid employees get to choose whether they want OT pay or time off..

          The patellar reflex is a deep tendon reflex which allows one to keep one's balance with little effort or conscious thought.

          by SpamNunn on Tue May 14, 2013 at 02:23:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Over-reaction (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck, SpamNunn
        •No worker can be intimidated, coerced, or forced to accept comp time instead of cash wages. Employers who coerce employees into choosing comp time would be liable to the employees for double damages.

        •All existing enforcement remedies – including action by the U.S. Department of Labor – are available to workers if an employer fails to pay cash wages for overtime hours or unreasonably refuses to allow workers to use accrued comp time.

        If your employer is that much of a scum - it give you more protection than you currently have.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Tue May 14, 2013 at 11:49:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here's a example of what my Union (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrkvica, Eyesbright

        has been ask to do. On a 40 hour week, they want us to work 4/10s before overtime kicks in. If you miss anytime in those 4 days then if you have to work a Sat or Sun to get to 40 hours you won't get overtime.

      •  Employers still have to pay you (0+ / 0-)

        for comp time. And assuming that overtime hours convert at the paid rate into time off, there isn't a super big benefit. So you write someone a check for $150 for 10 hours overtime, or you write them a check for $150 for 15 hours paid time off.

      •  Way before this law was a twinkle in Cantor's eye, (0+ / 0-)

        my employer pretty much ended overtime. It's why I have to work two jobs. And it takes me three hours at my second job to earn what I would have in one hour of overtime.

        In the meantime, back in "No Overtimeland," boy, you'd better keep up buddy, and do it all in forty hours or we'll find someone who will.

        “Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.

        by minglewood on Sat May 18, 2013 at 11:32:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Dead Wrong. (35+ / 0-)

      "as long as he or she provides reasonable notice and the requested time off does not unduly disrupt the business".

      And who decides what's "disruptive"? The employer.

      You can have any color Model T. As long as it's black.

      "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

      by nosleep4u on Tue May 14, 2013 at 10:29:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  scenario (33+ / 0-)

      The boss says he needs you to work on Saturday, but he can pay any overtime - "But how about some comp time?"  He really needs a project finished up and you know you can't really say no.  So you agree, thinking I'll just take off on Monday instead.  You ask for Monday off and the boss says, "No, I don't have anyone to cover you for the next few weeks - just take an extra hour for lunch every day for the next two weeks."  
      So now you put in an extra day of work but you don't really get any extra free time since the employer only lets  you to take it in useless chunks.

      It might work ok for some depending upon your employer.  I'm know honest give-and-take goes on like this already.  However, it gives shitty employers another tool to abuse their employees.

      •  Exactly. (6+ / 0-)

        Employers have thought of every angle to not pay people.

        My manager at a department store I used to work for told me to stop clocking back in after I was done with my lunch.

        It only took me 20-30 minutes for lunch, so I figured I would clock back in instead of sitting around doing nothing for half an hour.

        Nope. Big no-no. Manager said to take the whole hour or I might creep into overtime by Saturday.

        OFA is out to attack seniors, veterans, and the disabled. A DKOS Troll told me so.

        by kefauver on Tue May 14, 2013 at 11:51:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Libertarian Alert! (4+ / 0-)

      Freedom of Contract! Arm's Length Negotiation! If you don't like the pay, just get a better job! Or move to a new Market!

      Anybody care of Spammm "has no problem" with the screwing of the rest of us?

      "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

      by jm214 on Tue May 14, 2013 at 01:34:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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