Skip to main content

View Diary: Have Dems sold out too early on immigration? Not if they want something to actually pass (317 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Kos has always argued for selling out LGBT people (5+ / 5-)

    whenever there would be the slightest difficulty involved in not doing so.

    He has proven time and again that he will only encourage our politicians to stand up the most basic principles of human rights if he thinks it will help them get elected in the very next cycle.

    "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

    by JesseCW on Wed May 22, 2013 at 12:57:46 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  wow, pretty strong accusation in your title (22+ / 0-)
      Kos has always argued for selling out LGBT people
      If he's as odiously bigoted as you accuse him here of being, why do you hang around his site?
      Just curious.

      "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

      by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:03:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's politically expedient (11+ / 0-)

        And if that was such an outlandish claim then it should be pretty easy to find a counter-example.

        More and more attacks on "purity." We're going to get exactly the bill that the neoliberals want and kos is going to call it a victory for progressives, just like the DCCC is a progressive organization and Citizens United is also now good for progressives.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:11:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's a big difference between (21+ / 0-)

          saying "he's politically expedient" and saying he has "always argued for selling out LGBT people."

          It's one thing to suggest, as you do, that kos looks at political outcomes first. But JesseCW's accusation is that kos shows determined bigotry, since he has "always argued for selling out LGBT people."  I'd like to see some backup for that accusation.

          The question I asked, and still ask is: if a person feels that way, why hang around here?  

          "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

          by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:22:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  To answer your last question (7+ / 0-)

            Because kos is not the whole of this site.

            As for the rest of it. Selling out LGTB rights has been politically expedient more times than not. If you can point out where kos called on standing up for LGBT rights at the expense of some other groups I'm all ears.

            Now we've got dems arguing for an immigration bill that will demonstrably hurt workers and won't include LGTB people. Not to mention the fact that it isn't even that great for immigrants. Sure, if they can afford a long drawn out process to get citizenship, during which their legal status is rather questionable, then they'll be better off. The poorer won't be able to do this at all. At least if what I've read is correct. This is going to be like the No Child Left Behind debacle all over again.

            What next, the return of the bracero?

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:56:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So love it or leave it? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SpecialKinFlag, JesseCW, Dallasdoc

            Yikes.

            Forget regret, or life is yours to miss.

            by george in san diego on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:57:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Except that JesseCW NEVER SAID KOS... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dallasdoc, Ryvr

            ...HAS "ALWAYS ARGUED FOR SELLING OUT LGBT PEOPLE."

            He said, "Kos has always argued for selling out LGBT people whenever there would be the slightest difficulty involved in not doing so."

            Every single person who HR'd that comment committed ratings abuse. I hope Kos takes away their ratings privileges.

            You are making the same type of argument that the gun nuts make when they drop that part about, "A well-regulated militia."

            My question is whether your problem is with reading comprehension or honesty.

            Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

            by expatjourno on Thu May 23, 2013 at 11:56:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  AoT says: More and more attacks on "purity." (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens, mchristi314

          And I say: Exactly what we need, if we intend to win elections - for example midterm elections.

          In a democracy it is very limited, what you can achieve without winning elections.

          He who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.

          by Sophie Amrain on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:03:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  If you don't agree, get lost? (11+ / 0-)

        How, uh, liberal of you.  Good thing Markos doesn't feel the way you do.

        If you want to cut Social Security, you're not a real Democrat.

        by Dallasdoc on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:18:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  misinterpretation. (8+ / 0-)

          As I say in my earlier comments, to accuse someone of active bigotry is pretty strong.  That's accusing him of morally repugnant beliefs and behavior.  I'm not suggesting that he leave if he disagrees.  I'm just wondering what would attract him to such a place.

          Thanks for making--as usual--a negative assumption about my liberal bona fides.  Who named you the arbiter of such things?

          "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

          by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:26:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Misinterpretation? (10+ / 0-)

            You're the one misinterpreting.  Jesse accused Markos of political expediency to the point of not much caring about LGBT issues unless they're electorally helpful.  You're trying to put words in Jesse's mouth, accusing Markos of being a homophobic bigot.  Fat lot of nerve you have objecting to being misinterpreted.

            I didn't say anything about your liberal bona fides.  Just your intolerant attitude in that comment.  I feel perfectly competent to make that judgment.

            If you want to cut Social Security, you're not a real Democrat.

            by Dallasdoc on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:38:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My original comment says (5+ / 0-)
              wow, pretty strong accusation in your title (5+ / 0-)
              "Kos has always argued for selling out LGBT people"
              If quoting his title word for word, and then expressing shock at his title is putting words in Jesse's mouth then I stand accused.  I found his comment shocking and misplaced.  Perhaps it was just poorly expressed.

              "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

              by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 01:48:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not telling the truth (6+ / 0-)

                The quote you cite is in no way the same as calling Kos a bigot.  Not unless you call every Democratic politician who hung back from supporting marriage equality until it was safe to go in the water a bigot.  

                You're the one misinterpreting Jesse.  So don't cry about you supposedly getting misinterpreted.

                If you want to cut Social Security, you're not a real Democrat.

                by Dallasdoc on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:00:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "not telling the truth?" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Lost and Found

                  No conversation is possible with you.  I leave the field.

                  "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

                  by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:13:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Bye (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    expatjourno, stevemb, JesseCW, triv33

                    You misrepresented Jesse's comment, and your sanctimonious dudgeon is entirely fake.

                    If you want to cut Social Security, you're not a real Democrat.

                    by Dallasdoc on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:28:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Bullshit (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sophie Amrain, Lost and Found

                      No, he did not misrepresent anything.  It's fucking right there in black and white, for everyone who can read - to read it.

                      I don't want any part of your argument as I think it's total bullshit, but unless this site got a comment edit function in the last 5 minutes, Sotto is questioning an accusation that is right there, obvious to all but you apparently.

                      Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

                      by Miss Blue on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:41:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Horse shit. As usual from you. (3+ / 2-)
                        Recommended by:
                        stevemb, JesseCW, Dallasdoc
                        Hidden by:
                        jncca, Jeff Simpson

                        The title was the first half of a sentence. Quoting half a sentence and representing it as a complete though is textbook misrepresentation.

                        Even the fragment, "Kos has always argued for selling out LGBT people" does not imply Kos is "odiously bigoted." At most, it implies that he's indifferent to the interests of LGBT people.

                        Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

                        by expatjourno on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:54:22 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  HR for "horse shit. as usual from you." (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          SottoVoce

                          Clear uncivil personal attack.

                          20, CA-18 (home), CA-13 (school)
                          politicohen.com
                          Socially libertarian, moderate on foreign policy, immigration, and crime, liberal on everything else.
                          UC Berkeley; I think I'm in the conservative half of this city. -.4.12, -4.92

                          by jncca on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:04:33 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I know how to read. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Lost and Found

                          Quite well, in fact.  Excellent comprehension.  

                          My comment stands.  I'll refrain from adding any personal opinion of you.

                          Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

                          by Miss Blue on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:06:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't say you couldn't read. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, Dallasdoc

                            Assuming you can, it would be your honesty that would be in question because you would be knowingly misrepresenting what was said.

                            To imply that people who are misrepresenting a comment are functionally illiterate is to give them the benefit of the doubt.

                            Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

                            by expatjourno on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:16:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  No, at *best* it implies that he's indifferent. (0+ / 0-)

                          At worst it does imply he's a bigot.  (Both implications are false, BTW.)

                          I'm not sure why in this case you chose to adopt the most generous implication rather than the worst one, which is your usual m.o.  I've never seen you hesitant to take the extreme position before when there's a chance to condemn someone.  haha

                      •  check your kosmail, Miss Blue. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Miss Blue

                        "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

                        by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:08:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I'll Be Charitable... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dallasdoc, expatjourno

                      ...and assume that the gross misrepresentation of Jesse's comment was accidental.

                      Hence, I give you a rec, and withhold the donut from the misrepresentation.

                      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

                      by stevemb on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:03:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  If you finished the sentence (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW, Dallasdoc, expatjourno

            you would see why you're wrong. The title is not the whole of the sentence.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:37:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And even the title only implies indifference. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, JesseCW, Dallasdoc

              Not that Kos is "odiously bigoted."

              Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

              by expatjourno on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:56:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'd say that constructing straw men is pretty (3+ / 0-)

            ugly, but you've already stated your disagreement.

            Kos urges that we accept pandering to bigots.  In fact, he claims that all who don't agree are simply "unrealistic purists".

            His title itself is not "Should Democrats sell out the LBGT community that won them the White House" - but when.

            "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

            by JesseCW on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:25:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I appreciate hearing from you directly. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mchristi314, expatjourno

              I guess I was just freaked out by the title of your comment, and took it as a blanket "he always does that" statement about Markos throwing LGBT people under the bus.  He does strike me as wanting legislation to happen, but it seemed overstated to me in the extreme.  I apologize (to you) if I was hasty or mistaken in that judgment.

              As far as "stating my disagreement," I'm not sure what you mean--disagreement with what?  Actually, I made no comment about kos' diary at all, or his belief that Dems have to do what they have to do to get something passed.  (My only comments had to do with YOUR comments).  I actually recoil at giving more to the Republicans than we already have and always seem to continue doing.  That said, I don't know whether passing nothing from the time Obama was elected until 2014 (with the exception of the slow, but eventual end of DADT) would be a better choice.  I can't say, because I can't fathom the depth to which this House will go to see him destroyed.  I can't fathom the way their constituents are so filled with hatred that they applaud blocking everything and doing nothing as good works from their elected officials.

              He brings a lot of his troubles on himself, by being accommodating and trading away firm principles over and over again with no return.  But complete stasis isn't good for anyone, either.

              "Why reasonable people go stark raving mad when anything involving a Negro comes up, is something I don’t pretend to understand." ~ Atticus Finch, "To Kill a Mockingbird"

              by SottoVoce on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:45:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry, but you've put words in my mouth. (6+ / 0-)

        I know nothing about his innermost heart of hearts.

        I only know what he does.

        What he did for a decade was argue in favor of supporting politicians who made nakedly bigoted statements and who voted for bigoted laws.

        Now that the modern Dixiecrat era is drawing to a close, he's continuing to argue that we pander to, and make concessions to, the bigots of the other party.

        If it were 1970, would you support immigration "reforms" that discriminated based on race?

        "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

        by JesseCW on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:23:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If you're still on this site after today (6+ / 0-)

      then Kos has way more tolerance than I do.

    •  standing up would likely win votes in 2014 2016 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      expatjourno, stevemb

      strikes me, as the Latinos are coming into the voter force
      and the immigration bill is one where the GOP is holding
      up progress and splitting off that major group.

    •  HRd for baseless insult to Kos (4+ / 0-)

      who has done more than any of us -- or just about anybody anywhere to promote human rights on the internet.

      •  Oh, horse shit. You are committing ratings abuse. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stevemb, JesseCW, Dallasdoc

        Read the whole sentence of which the title is half.

        The complete sentence is a perfectly legitimate expression of an opinion.

        Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

        by expatjourno on Wed May 22, 2013 at 02:58:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Did you e-mail Sophie Amran, or did Sophie (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CajunBoyLgb, Dallasdoc, expatjourno

        E-mail you?

        I see you guys are getting the 'ol crew back together.

        I wonder which Kos has a bigger problem with - packs of HR crews dragging ancient fights from I/P into an immigration diary, or people who call his support for a sellout of the LGBT community support for a sellout of the LGBT community.

        Kos and I both agree that what he's urging is the betrayal of a long persecuted and abused group of people for political expediencies sake.

        We just disagree about whether it's 1) Right 2) Necessary.

        "The thing about smart motherfuckers is that they sound like crazy motherfuckers to dumb motherfuckers." Robert Kirkman

        by JesseCW on Wed May 22, 2013 at 03:30:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  HR for fucking lie. (0+ / 0-)

      Why don't you go back and check what Markos has actually written, over and over, for years.  Harold Ford 2006 might be a good place to start.

    •  Uprated for HR abuse. (nt) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dallasdoc, expatjourno

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site