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  •  p.s. (8+ / 0-)

    I have to especially comment on this line:

     the Western world's thinning veneer is starting to show its cracks.

    Our societal center of gravity, the rule of law, has collapsed. It's this simple...

    This wasn't the Western world showing its cracks. This was the radical Islamist, jihadist world showing its hatred of the West.

    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

    by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 05:43:06 PM PDT

    •  caused by this American jihadist: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      alain2112, onanthebarbarian

      God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq

      the roots of terrorism are in the willingness to feed it guns for profit... to feed it cash for those willing to back western need for resources.

      nobody is innocent here... not from those of us buying our clothes cheap, or our gas cheap, or our big fat juicy steaks.

      “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

      by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:26:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The jihadists hated the US and the West (6+ / 0-)

        long before we went into Iraq.

        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

        by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:28:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  why is that exactly? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          merrywidow

          “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

          by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:35:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are the Great Kuffar (8+ / 0-)

            the "Great Unbelief". The Qur'an and Islamic tradition declare that it is not right to allow unbelievers to exercise control over any nation. Not all Muslims are into that part of the tradition. But the jihadists take it very seriously. In their eyes, democracy is a kind of idolatry -- "bowing down" to laws made by men rather than God. They see it as their duty to cleanse the earth of our filth, by converting us, killing us, or subjugating us politically. It's a lot like Nazism, actually. And yeah, Hitler had excuses too -- the Treaty of Versailles made him do it.

            Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

            by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:41:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, Islam is about theocracy. (4+ / 0-)

              I can't believe "liberals" defend such garbage.

              "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

              by shrike on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:45:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think many don't know anything about it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                greengemini

                I've been reading up on it. An excellent book is called Knowing the Enemy -- it explains jihadist reasoning very clearly. Another one is The Suicide of Reason: Radical Islam's Threat to the West by Lee Harris.

                Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:47:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But let's be clear. Per Mary Habeck, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pfiore8, onanthebarbarian

                  author of Knowing the Enemy: Jihadist Ideology and the War on Terror (Yale University Press 2007), "Jihadis are a small minority within the Islamist movement that believes violence must be used in order to create the perfect Islamic state."

                  Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                  by another American on Thu May 23, 2013 at 02:35:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  again, thank you for being a voice of reason. (0+ / 0-)

                    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                    by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 04:14:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You're welcome. But (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Be Skeptical, jabney

                      you may not feel the same about me following this comment.

                      If, as we should, we do not blame Islam generally for the foul murder committed by apparent Islamists in Woolwich yesterday, we equally should not, as I understand your diary and comments to do, blame it on "the west" or "western governments." We ought to be able to say yes to peace, yes to the rule of law, and no to war without suggesting that our societies' and governments' imperfections somehow excuse this kind of response. Indeed, how is failing to hold that line different from those who  excuse torture with the argument that it is, or was, necessary to defend our countries against al qaeda and their ilk?

                      Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                      by another American on Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:01:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  blame? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        onanthebarbarian

                        the men who killed that poor soul in London are guilty, by all appearances and should take full blame/accountability for this horrible mad act.

                        i'm not EXCEPTING evil behavior because of the Western Worlds hand in it... I am giving a context for off-the-grid behavior.

                        and like it or not, greed and violence and this feeling of living in a world that's more like a runaway train doesn't help our chemical inhibitors to work as they do in more peaceful times.

                        these things are related, imo. it is foolish to look at single incidents and not understand the energy driving this madness.

                        “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                        by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:47:12 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  history. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              shrike, alain2112, merrywidow, Debby

              the middle east has been chopped up, redistributed, and badly handled for a long time... history, my friend, history. we never seem to pay attention to it.

              as i wrote, it is my contention that those in power have destabilized more than the climate with their greed.

              we are having the same problems with the South American drug cartels... but you never hear about this as TERRORISM... mostly, I guess, because of the connection between CIA/cartels/juntas ...

              “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

              by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:59:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  South American drug cartels (6+ / 0-)

                aren't following an ideology that lays out in explicit detail a demand for total world domination and slaughter of the infidels. Jihadists are. You should look farther back in history. Look at the Islamic genocide of the Armenians. Or the conquest of Constantinople. All in the service of the same ideology.

                Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:10:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  well, you could look back (0+ / 0-)

                  at just WWI and II... westerners killing 10s of millions of people.

                  for ideology... of some sort.

                  “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                  by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:13:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  and those cartels are for sure following an (0+ / 0-)

                  ideology: greed is good. their ideology is might-is-right. power.

                  you don't need god to have ideology.

                  world domination... are you so sure?

                  “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                  by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:15:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Am I sure that the jihadists are seeking (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jeff in nyc, valion, jabney, zinger99

                    world domination? Yes. They're very clear about it. They say it outright, over and over. Most Americans aren't paying attention, but yes, it is their goal.

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:08:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  p.s. It just hit me (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jabney, zinger99

                    Are you saying you actually didn't know that many, many jihadists, radical Islamist leaders, and Islamist organizations have said outright, in both Arabic and English, in videos, interviews, writings, speeches, etc. that their goal is to dominate the entire world and impose Islam on the West? It just struck me, somehow -- I guess I was assuming that most liberals weren't worried about the jihadist/radical Islamist program because they assumed that it wasn't a big enough movement to ever succeed. I've recently come to believe that actually, they have better chances of success than I thought they did, which is why I'm concerned. But it hadn't occurred to me that maybe the way our media reports things, maybe the jihadist and radical Islamist message hadn't gotten very wide airplay and maybe some people don't know that they're dreaming of replacing the US Constitution with sharia law. Believe me, they aren't being subtle about it. You can google and find plenty of support for what I'm saying. As a friend of mine put it, "It's a conspiracy, but not a secret conspiracy. Not if they keep announcing it over and over."

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:26:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  it's no more frightening (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lotlizard

                      than George Bush's new world order.

                      what the fuck do you think is going on here? of course it's all about domination. just not the way you think.

                      right now, the jihadists are fighting for their lives. if they win, it would be incredibly ironic because it will be, in large part, thanks to greedy westerners selling them the weapons to do it.

                      people take sides. you think one is better than the other. and you're right. for you, the western model works because it's how you were raised and how you think.

                      but setting sides as good or evil or one insane and the other not is what is insane and a little naive.

                      “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                      by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 04:50:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Bush is out of office (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Be Skeptical, jabney

                        And yes, I believe that the side that wants everyone to convert to one religion or die (or live under theocratic subjugation until they can't take it any more and convert) is far worse than the side that wants the entire world to live under democracy. Personally, I think we should leave their side alone, if they want to live as religious fanatics. But surely you would agree that our civilization is preferable to living under an Islamic theocracy?

                        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                        by Noisy Democrat on Thu May 23, 2013 at 05:25:01 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  for me, any theocratic rule (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          lotlizard

                          is not acceptable. one seems better than another because of our cultural bias, i would think.

                          i'm a jew, but i would never ever accept the crap being pulled in Israel and I hate that somehow people think if we're Jews we must be the same as an Israeli... and they are confusing us with a country that politicizes religion in a very (to me) negative way. in fact, from what i've read, many of the Jews living there deplore the influence of theocrats and the immoral treatment of the palestinians ...

                          and look, the old testament was a rough and tumble story and is the basis for much of the koran ... in fact, i'd say jews and muslims, in extremes, have a lot in common. and the protestants are as hardcore.

                          “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                          by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 05:33:45 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm against any theocratic rule as well (0+ / 0-)

                            The #1 theocratic danger to the US and the world is the Islamist movement, as far as I can see. I'm not saying that Christian Dominionism is small potatoes, but Islam is a larger and faster-growing problem, IMHO. The right-wing Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel are making life miserable for many Israelis and Palestinians, but they aren't trying to take over the US and Europe.

                            Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                            by Noisy Democrat on Sun May 26, 2013 at 05:54:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  and yes (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lotlizard

                      all extremists are frightening... because most of us ordinary people just want to go on with our lives... but those whacky few will drag us all down, no matter what side you're on.

                      “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                      by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 04:50:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  ? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Debby

                  Turkish genocide of the Armenians.

                  Constantinople happened in 1453. It was simply a conquest - like that of Granada in 1492 - and has nothing whatsoever to do with the ideologies of todays modernized people.

                  you cant be serious in linking such things up with modernity? That is as ahistoric as it ever gets. Quite like Serbs claiming Kosovo is forever theirs because of Amselfeld.

                  •  Why do you think Osama bin Ladin (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zinger99

                    picked September 11th? Because Sept. 11, 1683 was the point at which Islamic expansion into Europe was turned back, so this was the opening salvo in further expansion -- as the jihadists saw it. The jihadists are thinking in terms of centuries, not decades. They see it as one long fight, and who are we to say it isn't?

                    The jihadists aren't modernized. That's the point. They're following a very different ideology than are modernized Muslims or Westerners.

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:07:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  p.s. When they call us "Crusaders" (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Be Skeptical, Kickemout

                    that should tell you right there that they are not thinking about this in modern terms.

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 22, 2013 at 09:13:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Thats thoroughly modern thinking. (3+ / 0-)

                      Do you think that the Nazis were medieval, just because they called their Flemish auxiliaries the Last Knights of Flanders? Have you ever heard of romanticism and idealizations? Both are very modern inventions. Just that the current islamists use such imagery shows that they are in the forefront of the modernization of the arab world. (and yes its the arab world specifically).

                      They are a current political movement, to be fought for sure (not least by their own compatriots), but to equate them with islam or with anyone from times half a thousand years ago would be like equating Germans with Nazis (heh).

                      IIRC (but I am not entirely sure of this) the islamists go back to the 1860s and came into being as an anticolonialist reform movement that would not make any sense to anyone without the european imperialist expansion (compressing the islamic world into a single entity like it had never been the case since late middle ages). And now they are freeboarders of  globalization, of all things. They have much more in common with Occupy Wall Street than with some medieval Caliph.

                      •  Can you recommend any books or articles (0+ / 0-)

                        that lay out that view in more detail?

                        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                        by Noisy Democrat on Thu May 23, 2013 at 05:03:59 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  p.s. just to doublecheck (0+ / 0-)

                        You do know that they want to impose strict Sharia law on everyone, with the death penalty for gays, amputation for theft, stoning of rape victims, etc., right? Pretty far from Occupy Wall Street. If you think OWS is pushing the same economic model as the Islamic theocrats, I'd be curious to hear in what sense that's true. Otherwise, the only similarity I see is that both are against unbridled capitalism and usury.

                        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                        by Noisy Democrat on Wed May 29, 2013 at 06:30:58 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  You are correct. (4+ / 0-)

                We are partly to blame.

                But would Scandinavians 'jihad'?  Of course not.

                Islam is about all submitting to a sorry ass "prophet" - but so is that other major world religion.

                "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Thomas Paine

                by shrike on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:11:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  sure they did... (0+ / 0-)

                  they were the barbarian horde, right... they pretty much killed and plundered their way through lots of land and lives.

                  “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                  by pfiore8 on Wed May 22, 2013 at 07:17:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Examples from 1500 years ago (0+ / 0-)

                    fail to impress me.

                    •  well, the story hasn't changed much. (0+ / 0-)

                      as far as I can tell. just the actors.

                      “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                      by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 06:49:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So let's focus on the actors of the present (0+ / 0-)

                        Pointing out that Vikings butchered people in c. 975 has no bearing on the barbarisms today.

                        •  i didn't... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          lotlizard

                          just responded to the commenter.

                          btw... i'm pretty sure that the past has lots of bearing on today. otherwise, why do we keep bringing it up?

                          one example: the irish and the english... more recently, the African American experience as slaves still figures prominently in dynamics today... and while the Southerns continue to moan about the civil war, they somehow think the black man and woman oughta just get over slavery.

                          people are funny, aren't they?

                          not to mention... i saw this thing where every president except van buren could trace roots to King George. i know how iffy a trilateral commission is... but i wonder how many people in power politics have pedigree? probably a lot.

                          as Jung said, there is a blood knowledge. i don't know if he said this, but the losing sides never seem to forget and it seems to keep fueling all this bullshit we find ourselves in.

                          so i'm thinking there's a line and we're on it. we just aren't aware of how much bearing our past influences our present...

                          well, that is besides the apparent clean break between ancient highly civilized cultures like Rome and Egypt and the onset of the dark ages (most likely brought on by Christianity and its motto of let Jesus do the driving)... just my opinion of course.

                          “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn’t do than by the ones you did do.” - Mark Twain

                          by pfiore8 on Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:52:41 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  You fail to undersatnd the Islamist (6+ / 0-)

        They are manipulated.  Read the history of the Muslim Brotherhood which in it's modern form was founded in the late 1920's.  They want to create a modern caliphate though jihad.  

        This all started long before the Bushes were born - cheap clothes - cheap oil (not sure where you buy you gas) - and not sure what juicy steak has to do with it - maybe you meant some nice Canadian Bacon.

        The blame all their ills on the Jews and us Western infidels...here is a good explanation:

        Jihad is now a war of defense, and as such has become not only a collective duty but an individual duty without restrictions or limitations. That is, to the Islamists, Jihad is a total, all-encompassing duty to be carried out by all Muslims – men and women, young and old. All infidels, without exception, are to be fought and annihilated, and no weapons or types of warfare are barred. Furthermore, according to them, current Muslim rulers allied with the West are considered apostates and infidels. One major ideological influence in Islamist thought was Sayyid Qutb. Qutb, an Egyptian, was the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood movement. He was convicted of treason for plotting to assassinate Egyptian president Gamal Abd Al-Nasser and was executed in 1966. He wrote extensively on a wide range of Islamic issues. According to Qutb, "There are two parties in all the world: the Party of Allah and the Party of Satan – the Party of Allah, which stands under the banner of Allah and bears his insignia, and the Party of Satan, which includes every community, group, race, and individual that does not stand under the banner of Allah
        So if you understand Islamic extremism, you understand that they are to be treated like Nazi's or any other extreme group - you can't negotiate with them - you fight them - you protect yourself from them and then you try to influence minds and behavior.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Wed May 22, 2013 at 06:52:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The victims of terrorism are innocent. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Be Skeptical

        The man murdered in Woolrich as much as those murdered at the Boston Marathon.

        Terrorism is a choice.

        Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

        by another American on Thu May 23, 2013 at 02:28:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I lived and worked in Egypt for 4 years (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pfiore8

      During that time my wife and I made many close friends amongst Egyptians both at work and socially.  We are still in touch with them regularly through social media, telephone and email.  
      The majority of people in Egypt and in fact in most of the Middle East aren't that much different than you or I.  They want good jobs, want to feed their families, have decent apartment and car and see their kids go to school and advance themselves.  They are Muslim and follow the religion with discipline including the fasting at Ramadan and the 5x per day praying.
      Egyptians specifically and Arabs in general are warm, hospitable people who will welcome foreigners, provide help if they can and remind you that you are honoured guests to be kept safe and accepted.  I work in many countries but Egypt was the one in which we felt most accepted and the safest in spite of the religious/cultural differences
      But there is a problem with the religion.  While Islam has many beautiful and peaceful aspects, it tends to brainwash and the constant studying and repetition of the Koran crowds out much individual and creative thinking.  Many of the priciples and beliefs are 16th century as evidenced by attitudes towards women in general and the all to frequent rush to violence when the Prophet has been perceived to have been insulted.
      So as an outsider you're often faced with this dichotomy--these warm, friendly, hospitable people, well educated in many cases and often quite cosmopolitan on one hand and these 16th century religious beliefs and actions on the other.
      Then of course are the jihdists or islamic fundamentalists who have perverted Islam using violent means to do what--stay holed up in the 16th century.
      There have been to few western efforts to undertand this and an embarrassing level of ignorance displayed by senior officials of wstern powers.  In the runup to the Iraq War, the senior DOD official who equated the Shiites and the Sunnies to the Lutherans and the Methodists is a case in point.  I met a senior US Airforce official at CDG airport on the way to Egypt who kept referring to the people he had been sent to train on new radar systems as "sandniggers".
      Lastly, there are Moslem leaders who are only now starting to speak out against the violence of jihadic fundamentalist and up to now through their silence seemed to condone these violent excesses that we keep seeing.
      The play is always for the hearts and minds of the average Arab citizen but that seems to be failing to0.   The outcry against giving a proper burial to one of the Boston bombers alienates moderate Muslims across the world and was so unnecessary.  The anti Muslim backlash in the US undercuts whatever progress people like Obama have made in engaging them moderates and moving these issues forward.  Given the realities on both sides, it's hard to be optimistic

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