Skip to main content

View Diary: British Neo-Nazis are on the March (and Fox News is eager to help) (157 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I had never read Storm Front and so I was not (0+ / 0-)

    using their language. You're the one suggesting that they should be cited as a source. I'm describing what I see going on. You may see things differently. I think innocent people are being victimized in the UK by people who follow an ideology that's pushed by a wealthy crowd of totalitarian bigots based in Saudi Arabia. I think anyone who open-mindedly follows the news from the UK can see it for themselves (though Muslims are called "Asians" in a lot of the news articles, but once you know that bit of Brit-speak, the rest speaks for itself). YMMV.

    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

    by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 04:26:37 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It's good to be critical of radical Islam. (5+ / 0-)

      But demonizing terms like "Islamofascism" are not helpful. I'm also critical of religious extremism of every stripe.

      Look at the language you're using and the company the use of those terms puts you in, and think about what you're saying.

      It's important to recognize, though, that the Demonization of all Muslims will do nothing but help the people you're trying to oppose.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

      by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 04:44:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're the one calling the EDL Nazis! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bigtimecynic

        I'm quite sure that many members of the EDL don't believe in Nazism in any form. They simply want the authorities to take the problem seriously.

        I haven't demonized all Muslims in the slightest. Show me where I said that all Muslims believed in radical, totalitarian, theocratic Islam. Never said it. I keep using terms that make it clear I'm talking about a specific ideology within Islam -- Islamic supremacism, a.k.a. Islamofascism -- and you bend the term to mean "all Muslims." Then you say that the Brits who are protesting are all Nazis. I'm quite sure that demonizing all protesting Brits as Nazis will do nothing but help the people you're trying to oppose.

        Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

        by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:00:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

          As I say below:

          I'm not calling these people Nazis to be dramatic.

          I'm calling them Nazis because they are, in fact, Nazis. Do you not see the Swastikas and the Nazi Salutes?

          And I did not accuse YOU of doing these things, though not being clear about that is my error.

          I am accusing the EDL of demonizing Islamic people.

          An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

          by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:48:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Also, I'm really uncomfortable (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WB Reeves, Mikey, sethtriggs

          reading Neoconservative talking points from the Bush administration, like "Islamofascism" here on DailyKos.

          Again, do you mean the Ba'ath party?

          Stop calling things fascist just because you want to demonize them!

          An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

          by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 06:50:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know anything about the Ba'ath party (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bigtimecynic

            and I detested and detest the Bush Administration. But there is a real problem with radical, totalitarian Islam being pushed into Britain through Saudi funding and literature. These working-class people are trying to get their government to notice the genuine problems that keep being ignored.

            I did see the pictures. I'm certain that those people don't speak for all of the EDL, any more than the Tsernaev brothers spoke for all Muslims. The leader of the EDL said he punched one member for making a Nazi salute and that he tells people not to do it. I think that when there's a wider range of organizations through which people can express their concerns about theocratic Islam being pushed into their country, probably the Nazis will go one way and the anti-Nazis will go another. For now, there are very few organizations that are even speaking out, so there aren't a lot of organizations for people to choose from.

            Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

            by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:09:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You have no concept of what's going on in the UK. (3+ / 0-)
              For now, there are very few organizations that are even speaking out,
              Aside from the BBC, the Muslim Council of Scotland, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Guardian, almost every British news outlet... Hell! The BBC's left wing program, Panorama, which is very similar to Democracy Now, has done pieces both on the BNP and Islamic Extremism. They specifically mentioned the Sharia "Courts" and outlined the problems with them.

              The EDL is taking part in what is known as cryptofascism. Organizations like the Lega Nord in Italy and individuals like Nigel Farange, Nick Griffin, and Geert Wilders are some of the ideological leaders in this far-right movement.

              It is a real problem in Europe, with all the old fascist organizations rebranding themselves and trying to pretend they're not Antisemites. It is EXACTLY what Nick Griffin talked about when he talked about making Nazism "Sale-able."

              You're either misinformed, or intentionally lying here in an attempt to muddy the waters and put up a smokescreen for the EDL.

              I'm going to assume you're misinformed because you're an established member of this community.

              I'm going to assume that you really do detest the Bush administration, even though I find your parroting of bigoted talking points invented by Karl Rove, like "Islamofascism," disturbing.

              Please, educate yourself on this issue before you keep discussing it.

              You don't know what you're talking about.

              An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

              by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:18:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, so which left wing group would you recommend (0+ / 0-)

                I look at to see who's leading the charge? I've spent quite a bit of time looking at what's going on in England. Pat Condell doesn't seem to be part of any large organization. Like if ordinary British citizens want to organize and speak out about how Islamic extremism is damaging their community, what group would they join?

                I thought you said the term "Islamofascism" came from the Storm Front website. Now it came from Karl Rove. I have no idea where it came from. As far as I know, it's just one term that some have found useful to talk about a problem that arises out of some versions of Islam, just as Christofascism comes out of some forms of Christianity but doesn't mean the entire Catholic Church. If you don't like that term, I will try to stick to other terms like "radical Islam". Though I have no idea who invented which word, frankly, so maybe I'll stumble on another one that came from some right-winger whose material I've never read. I could call it "civilization jihad," since that's the term the Muslim Brotherhood uses, but most people don't know what that means.

                Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:30:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Honestly, the institutional parts of the British (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Barbara Marquardt, purplehaze

                  Left best cut out for this are left wing Muslims. And they've been working on these issues for years.

                  I recommend Omar Ali, Humza Yousaf in Scotland (old Article, he's a  Scottish National Party official now), and groups like the AHA Foundation. There are PLENTY more if you're willing to look.

                  Karl Rove began the use of the term Islamofascist specifically targeting the Ba'ath party, but it's since been adopted by Stormfront and used against Muslims in general.

                  An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                  by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:56:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  There's no such thing as an anti-Nazi (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OllieGarkey, laurnj

              who would make common cause with a Nazi. A Nazi only engages in activity seen as forwarding their genocidal goals. Any pretense otherwise is just that, a pretense and only a sucker would fall for it.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:40:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So here's a simple question (0+ / 0-)

                Let's say we have some non-Muslims in Britain who don't want to live under sharia law and feel that their lives are being badly impacted by extremist Muslim behavior in the UK, and who are worried about the documented fact that some Muslims want to push sharia onto Britain. But let's say these people don't want to commit genocide against anyone or rub elbows with Nazis. I think there really are a lot of people like that, and I think some of them have been joining the EDL -- maybe mistakenly, or out of desperation -- and some don't know what to do and aren't joining anything. What group, or what kind of group, would you recommend they join?

                Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 07:45:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This is another lie. (9+ / 1-)
                  Let's say we have some non-Muslims in Britain who don't want to live under sharia law
                  Sharia Law does not have, and never will have, legal status in Britain. Sharia Law courts are set up by muslim communities for Muslims to willingly participate in. They have absolutely no power, except for the power they are given by the right-wing Muslims who obey them.

                  They are no different from the protestant church courts set up to handle violations of church doctrine. Those exist in Catholicism, and every single mainline protestant denomination, including the Anglican church.

                  They have NO legal authority, whatsoever.

                  This is a red herring.

                  Sharia Law will never, EVER, have legal standing in Britain. It is constitutionally impossible.

                  An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                  by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:08:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't lie (0+ / 0-)

                    I said that there are non-Muslims who are worried about the groups who say that they plan to impose sharia in the future. So it sounds like your answer would be to tell them just not to worry about it. OK.

                    Please visit: http://www.jkmediasource.org

                    by Noisy Democrat on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:32:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's the response of the vast majority of the (9+ / 0-)

                      British public. The EDL is scaring the crap out of working class people over something that is absolutely not an issue. They're stirring up violence and hatred, over threats that don't exist.

                      And another thing, they don't talk about "Defending" British culture.

                      They talk about "preserving" it, as if the culture which spawned Shakespeare, Wesley, Orwell, and Tolkien needed some kind of protection!

                      As if the English language wasn't the lifeblood of international commerce, spoken by billions!

                      They're not interested in preserving English culture! They're interested in preserving England's whiteness.

                      Nothing more, nothing less. And your counter arguments are absurd.

                      I know I'm getting snarky here, but what you're saying is absurd.

                      Saying that the EDL is some decent organization is like saying

                      "Sure there are a couple of extreme members, but at their core, the KKK is just strongly opposed to affirmative action, unchecked immigration and for securing a future for their children. Which are noble endeavors!"

                      These people firebomb mosques. They lie.

                      The enemy of militant political Islam is not necessarily your friend, no matter how much you hate them.

                      These people are doing the same thing Michelle Bachman does! They're making up bullshit about elected british pols who happen to be muslim, and accusing them of membership in the Muslim Brotherhood.

                      Bachman accused Keith Ellison of being Muslim Brotherhood. Keith Ellison, the chairman of the Progressive Congressional Caucus.

                      It's a lie.

                      And you keep saying these things that are completely untrue.

                      You have been lied to. You're falling for their propaganda.

                      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                      by OllieGarkey on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:26:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Why are you calling him a liar? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    OllieGarkey

                    An unnecessary insult, since the comment was essentially trying to describe people's very real fears. The legal probability is irrelevant to the fact that people do in fact have these fears.

                    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

                    by bigtimecynic on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:41:45 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am not calling him a Liar. (6+ / 0-)

                      I am calling the statement a lie.

                      They are being lied to. I believe that he was being lied to. Just like michelle bachman lied when she said that Kieth Ellison was a member of the Muslim Brotherood.

                      I said that the statement itself was a lie. I did not call Noisy Democrat a liar. I know that he believes what he's saying. He is not intentionally lying to anyone, and I don't think that he would, which is why I am engaging with him.

                      If I thought he wasn't being honest, I would not have spent so much time continuing this conversation.

                      I could have definitely phrased that better, though. Being bombastic and subtle at the same time is not an effective way to communicate.

                      Thank you, though, for trying to make sure that our discourse stays civil.

                      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

                      by OllieGarkey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:48:26 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Jesus (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OllieGarkey, Oh Mary Oh

                  You really don't have a clue about the UK.

                  Sharia law isn't coming and isn't a threat in any way apart from amongst a small group of lunatics who have the collective Brainpower of Fox News.

                  People generally see the EDL as a bunch of idiots and are very pissed off at the fact that they all stood around the National War memorial recently throwing Hitler salutes

                  They  are concentrated amongst a couple of small areas in three or four cities and are mainly made up of  gangs of former football hooligans who are looking for an alternate reason to fight now that the police are clamping down on football violence so heavily.

                  At the majority of marches they are heavily outnumbered. Last week they tried turning up in several cities, and wherever they turned up they were outnumbered by Antifaschist activists with a minimum of three times their numbers

                  Interviewer: What do you believe is behind this recent increase in terrorist bombings? Helpmann: Bad sportsmanship

                  by ceebs on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 07:45:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I sympathize with your irritation. (4+ / 0-)

          England has a severe Islamist problem that just simply doesn't exist in the US on such a scale.  Downplaying that can only be done by people trying to be ridiculously politically correct.  But dude, the pictures in the diary clearly show that these leaders are ne-Nazi.  They are clearly fascists.

          Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

          by bigtimecynic on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:35:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, and I am making no attempt to down-play (6+ / 0-)

            the issues with Islamist Extremism in the UK. I just wanted to make that clear.

            A soldier got his head chopped off by the assholes in broad daylight. I have said, repeatedly, that I oppose the Islamists. I have also said, below, that I have faith that the people of Britain and their ancient legal tradition can deal with this problem.

            But bigtimecynic is right here. The EDL isn't some community organization trying to fight sharia law. They're white nationalists and liars attempting to stir up hatred and capitalize from a tragic event.

            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

            by OllieGarkey on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:40:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Check Stormfront To Avoid Using White Supremacist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Massconfusion

      ...language. It's quite enlightening to use the Google site: function

      There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

      by bernardpliers on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 04:48:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He is right though. Stay clear of that phrase. (4+ / 0-)

      It's a rightwing trigger word. Really "Islamist" is the word you are looking for. There is no fascist aspect to "Islamists".  They are driven almost entirely by theocratc extremism, as opposed to racism.  There is plenty evidence of non-arabs being welcomed by these people with open arms as long as they are big enough assholes.  You point is very well taken, just don't muddy it with unintentionally poor word choice.

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

      by bigtimecynic on Thu Jun 13, 2013 at 08:32:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site