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View Diary: Apple launches iRomney (62 comments)

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  •  There is a huge difference between corporations (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alhambra

    who put off repatriating cash in order to delay taxes, and wealthy individuals who fight for lower personal income tax rates. While many rich people claim to be "job creators", for the most part that is a myth; if they paid more in taxes that would just be that much less money for them to accumulate for their heirs. But a company like Apple really does employ many Americans, and improves lives throughout the world through their technological innovation. They really are job creators, and so much more. Mitt Romney never created anything. He was a finance guy, shifting money around from place to place and taking a cut of it for himself every time. He and Apple really have very little in common.

    •  Apple employs very few Americans. (1+ / 0-)
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      Eyesbright

      I don't think they do any manufacturing in this country at all any more. They closed all their US plants and moved the jobs to China. I thought this was common knowledge.

      The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

      by Azazello on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:25:31 PM PDT

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      •  Apple employs hundreds of thousands (1+ / 0-)
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        VClib

        Through contractors. But they still have over 50,000 employees who work officially for Apple in the US alone. They're a huge employer, anyway you look at it.

        •  Yeah, I guess they need CSRs to sell their iCrap, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Boberto

          but the good jobs, the high-paying manufacturing jobs, those have all been outsourced. There's a whole chapter about Apple in Barlett & Steele's The Betrayal of the American Dream. I don't understand the loyalty, why so many people rush to defend those tax-avoiding outsourcing SOBs.

          The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

          by Azazello on Thu May 23, 2013 at 03:49:57 PM PDT

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          •  Azazello - the real high paying jobs at Apple (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alhambra

            are in product development, engineering, sales and marketing. Most of those jobs are in the US. If you look at Apple's plans for its new headquarters you can get a hint at the scale of Apple's US operations. The real high paying jobs are in the US.

            Apple is bringing one Mac line back to be manufactured in the US in 2014. It will be outsourced domestically. Apple made a strategic decision many years ago that it had no competitive advantage as a manufacturer and has no interest in making its own products.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu May 23, 2013 at 05:19:08 PM PDT

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            •  Good comment, but he isn't (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              VClib, Alhambra

              listening. Corporations bad, Apple bad. Can't really break through that too easily.

              •  I think you are right doc (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                doc2, Alhambra

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Thu May 23, 2013 at 07:33:52 PM PDT

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              •  Good comment ? Not really. (1+ / 0-)
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                JerryNA

                Just an attempt to spin the facts; corporate PR. He doesn't deny that Apple closed several plants in the US and that those plants paid good middle-class wages, because he can't. Better just not to mention it. No mention of Foxconn either, just some corp-speak about "strategic decision" and "competitive advantage," euphemistic terms to describe outsourcing to take advantage of slave labor. Am I anti-corporate ? You bet, you would be too if you cared about your country.

                The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

                by Azazello on Thu May 23, 2013 at 11:24:06 PM PDT

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                •  Az - I was just responding to your comment (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brainwrap, Sparhawk, sewaneepat

                  that the good high paying jobs have "all been outsourced" which is complete nonsense. The good high paying jobs are here in Silicon Valley. It is a fact that the manufacturing has moved to China and that those were good jobs that were lost. However, those manufacturing jobs in the US did not pay as much as the jobs that remain here.

                  "let's talk about that"

                  by VClib on Fri May 24, 2013 at 07:45:54 AM PDT

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                  •  Also, of course Apple was not the only computer (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    VClib, One Opinion

                    manufacturer who moved manufacturing operations off shore -- all of them did. The only companies who didn't were making specialized machines for niche markets.

                    This was the whole point of NAFTA and the other global trade agreements.

                    However, in the Dubya era, lots of high-paying software jobs were also offshored, and a lot of young, inexpensive, H1bs were brought to the US to replace laid off US tech workers -- which was an abuse of the H1b law, but the Bushies didn't care, and Obama believes whatever lies the tech companies tell him ("we just can't find Americans with these skills!").

                  •  that's really wonderful... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...for the 50,000 people at the top of the heap.

                    99% of American workers don't get anywhere near that kind of high-end work.

                    don't always believe what you think

                    by claude on Sat May 25, 2013 at 07:32:35 AM PDT

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            •  You can throw a rock anywhere in (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brainwrap, Patango

              Santa Clara County and hit an Apple office. If they're not the biggest commercial office renter in SV, I don't know who is. Lots of folks work for Apple and they're well paid. That doesn't excuse their tax games. SV Libertarians are always screaming about the deficit. Let them pay their fair share.

              I never liked you and I always will.

              by Ray Blake on Thu May 23, 2013 at 11:24:21 PM PDT

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            •  The problem is... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TacoPie

              ...that  product development, engineering, sales and marketing make up a relatively small amount of overall employment.  

              For that matter, as an engineer myself, I'll note that engineering work comes in two varieties:  design/development and production support.  And the offshoring of manufacturing means that a substantial number of the latter jobs have also left the U.S.

              Political Compass: -6.75, -3.08

              by TexasTom on Sat May 25, 2013 at 12:43:34 PM PDT

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    •  Staples (0+ / 0-)

      Bain Capital saved Staples (among others) and the jobs of everyone that works in their stores. How is that any different than what Apple has done?

      •  In my opinion here is the difference in Romney (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TRPChicago

        and Apple.

        Both paid all the taxes they are required to pay and I have no problem with either for doing so. It is what all law abiding citizens do.

        But Romney was running for President - and Presidents make tax policy - on the position that his taxes were high enough and  in fact should be reduced further. Romney approved of the special treatment he was getting and wanted more. That is the difference between him and President Obama - Obama recognizes the inherent unfairness of current tax laws and is trying to change it.

        Apple does not make tax policy. That is a huge difference.  If Apple was running for President (in the land of corporate personhood, why not), that would be different.

        When asked his opinion, Tim Cook said that the law should be changed so that corporations could repatriate money but at a single digit rate and not at 35%  and that the corporate tax should be around 25% instead of 35%. Now you may disagree with the numbers he advocates, but the 25% rate without so many loopholes seems much fairer to me. It is in line with other countries. And it seems to me that he favors reform that would actually increase Apple's tax liability, but he is under no legal or moral obligation to pay more taxes than Apple owes as long as the law is what it is.

        The argument that people or corporations should voluntarily pay more than they legally owe is what RWers say about Warren Buffett. They think he has no right to advocate a change in the law to make it more fair, especially unless he voluntarily pays more. Silly and stupid argument IMO.

        You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

        by sewaneepat on Sat May 25, 2013 at 04:57:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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