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View Diary: WATCH: The "Obama Pipeline"? (168 comments)

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  •  Van, why haven't we been able to dissuade the (12+ / 0-)

    ...public away from the Keystone XL project?Is there any polling that would suggest that opponents of the project have moved public opinion against Keystone? So if the public wants the thing built, how is that President Obama's "betrayal"?

    Haven't we failed and isn't the real scandal that we once again want President Obama to go against public opinion in order to make up for our failure?

    So once again he is handed a mess and told if he doesn't clean it up, it is all on him. I love the work you do Van, but this diary is disappointing.

    The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

    by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 10:37:05 AM PDT

    •  There Exists Factual Reality. (31+ / 0-)

      One time the public opposed involvement in a 2nd European war, but a President back then acknowledged there existed a factual reality and took steps to address it including leading on persuading the people, that have been seen by most ever since to have been necessary.

      It's not all a popularity contest.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu May 30, 2013 at 10:41:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So when the polls say 90% support background (6+ / 0-)

        ...checks, it's "not a popularity contest" and it's ok to stop that legislation. See how that kind of simple but flawed thinking can go against you?

        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:09:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That makes no sense (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bryduck, northsylvania

          in this context. There's a factual reality about whether background checks work or not, regardless of how popular it is. That's why it isn't a popularity contest. Likewise, building KXL is a horrible thing regardless of how popular it is. Why not bring up single payer, or the public option, which got thrown out despite the fact that we "did our job." It it were a popularity contest then things that are popular would pass.

          If 90% of the American public supported this pipeline it would still be wrong. And you can call us failures or put the blame on the people who are in fact making it happen and letting it happen. Of course, taking responsibility is so out of fashion these days that I can understand why you would blame people who have no say in the matter. Fuck, we just got the guy elected, not like it matters what we think.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 30, 2013 at 04:29:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  "Factual Reality" (4+ / 0-)

        is redundant.  While FDR was doing the best he could in the executive branch (lend/lease but 1 example), he didn't persuade anyone until Pearl Harbor.

    •  Public opinion (26+ / 0-)

      is based on the three myths mentioned in the vid.
      I'm sure that Obama knows about these untruths being spread through the media. I'm sure he knows they are not true.
      If he approves it based on public opinion that is based on these myths then he is complicit and the pipeline is all his.

    •  public opinion (16+ / 0-)
      Haven't we failed and isn't the real scandal that we once again want President Obama to go against public opinion in order to make up for our failure?
        Isn't that why we have elections, if we are going to govern ourselves via public opinion, we don't need congress or a president, just have polls to see how we go.

        I don't buy the public opinion as an excuse, he has done plenty of other things against public opinion. He is supporting it because either he or people he listens to support it.

      •  He's supporting it because he is in bed with... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        quill, Lowgun, snoopydawg

        ...the most destructive, plutocratic interests on the planet, from Wall Street to Oil. And he will be richly rewarded by his plutocratic bedmates for selling today's children, including his own, down the river.

        That's just how he rolls.

        Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

        by expatjourno on Thu May 30, 2013 at 03:22:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The public doesn't understand what is being built. (15+ / 0-)

      They've been pounded with misinformation about KXL.
      Apart from the obvious ongoing environmental disaster that KXL represents, the public is being deceived into believing that KXL will help reduce fuel prices. The opposite is true. In order for the tar sands operations to be profitable the price of oil needs to go UP. And stay UP.
      File under: if we had a Fourth Estate.

      -4.38, -7.64 Voyager 1: proof that what goes up never comes down.

      by pat bunny on Thu May 30, 2013 at 10:57:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The public understands that there is energy in the (7+ / 0-)

        ...ground and they don't intend to leave it there.

        I do not believe that Keystone XL should be completed, but my indignation doesn't entitle me to deny the reality of the situation and that is the damn thing enjoys majority support even within the Democratic Party.

        I see Keystone XL has a battle in a larger war and we've lost the public on it. Blaming the media, or the polling, or whatever/whoever isn't going to fix that. What we can do is take a long hard look and reassess how we have been approaching this urgent issue.

        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:16:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  one thing we should look at is people giving up (10+ / 0-)

          like you seem to be, if you are against it, before a decision has been made.

          You even seem to be encouraging other people to give up when no decision has been made.

          The whole movement is grassroots, and growing, and yet you seem ready to start a post-morteme. Why?

          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

          by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:20:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So my call to reevaluate our approach is giving up (4+ / 0-)

            Wow. Ok. I mean, it begs the question of why reevaluate if you are intent on quitting, but ok.

            Keystone is but one battle in a long war with the fate of the planet hanging in the balance. I really have no patience for indulging b.s. as we need to start winning more battles.

            We simply cannot continue in a mode where we do not have the public with us and then expect whoever is in office to go against the public. It isn't going to work. If you truly believe in a grassroots approach, then you should expect that change comes from the bottom-up, not from decrees in the Oval Office.

            If you believe our approach has been effective, then we will have to disagree. The only thing I am giving up on is those who want to continue to find excuses rather than find a way to fight better.

            The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

            by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:35:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see a growing movement against Obama's Tar Sand (8+ / 0-)

              pipeline.

              I look forward to you joining and offering ideas on better communication with diaries, recs and tips.

              I'm sure you'll be recommending this diary any minute now, as such a strong supporter;

              Recommended by:
              Zorge, jazzence, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, FutureNow, James Wells, Mary Mike, Polly Syllabic, Burned, confitesprit, Bill in Portland Maine, John Crapper, chrississippi, Glen The Plumber, gooderservice, aoeu, Agathena, remembrance, SolarMom, maggiejean, cosmic debris, Meteor Blades, Gooserock, LaughingPlanet, Lowgun, boriskamite, pat bunny, trykindness, One Pissed Off Liberal, cardboardurinal, Oaktown Girl, kimoconnor, JekyllnHyde, greenbastard, Torta, Albanius, Sybil Liberty, joanbrooker, MKinTN, MrJayTee, citisven, No Exit, terrybuck, Ashaman, 2laneIA, joedemocrat, SneakySnu, MrSandman, kevinpdx, SaintC, raina, Progressive Pen, Lady Libertine, zmom, wasatch, Skennet Boch, navajo, Mogolori, maybeeso in michigan, Red Bean, anodnhajo, CitizenOfEarth, Lily O Lady, zerelda, gulfgal98, Sara R, Shahryar, thomask, 3goldens, doroma, DRo, Panacea Paola, HappyinNM, OLinda, wayoutinthestix, Dave925, asterkitty, tarheelblue

              Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

              by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:42:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Calling it "Obama Tar Sand Pipeline" doesn't help (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, Gator Keyfitz, Onomastic

                It gets you lots of love from his fellow haters, but it does not help us change much.

                No, I will not recommend a diary I feel is wrong even if I admire the diarist and think he got a raw deal in D.C.

                Making this into another rox/sux thing is a giant waste of time and emblematic of the ability of people to lose focus.

                We need to change our approach to bring the public along with us. If we don't, then there will be more Keystone XL's to come with the same result no matter who happens to be POTUS at the time. So I'm asking question ow because I have no intentions of repeating the same losing battle and then commiserating about my victimhood here at DK.

                This is a fight for the planet and we do not have time to indulge losing strategies. If you have a better strategy than bringing along the public with a message of jobs, security and quality of life instead of doom, then let's hear it. If not, spare the righteous indignation because it isn't working.

                The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

                by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:54:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Obama's Tar Sands Pipeline doesn't help your cause (6+ / 0-)

                  neither does calling me a hater. I recommend you not attack me, and while you may not agree with the approach of this diary, keeping the issue visible is, so I recommend you recommending this diary.

                  Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                  by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:13:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And still no comment about changing strategies. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan

                    That is what interests me. Everything else is self-importance.  

                    I will not rec a diary that I find to be counterproductive to the cause. Van can do better than appeals only to a narrow segment of the population.

                    The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

                    by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:21:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You have to advance a new strategy for me to (6+ / 0-)

                      comment on it.

                      I think the rebranding Jones starts in the diary is another good strategy. So is the video. Both are about communication, informing and reaching people.

                      Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                      by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:24:33 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ok, so you really are about being obtuse. (0+ / 0-)

                        You got me, I thought for a moment there you really did want to dialouge about something.

                        I have been quite clear in how I believe we should change and what our approach should be. If you want to pretend that I haven't done so up and down this thread, then that is on you.

                        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

                        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 01:40:44 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No reason to start calling me things (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          expatjourno

                          just tell me your new strategy. Sincerely, I'm open and willing to help you advance it. I feel passionately about this. I think there is room for many strategies.

                          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                          by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 01:57:42 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Van Jones's strategy: (5+ / 0-)

                          Founded Green for All in 2007.

                          Green Collar Economy, published in 2008.

                          Appointed in 2009 to be Obama's Special Advisor for Green Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. (We know what happened to that.)

                          Remind me of who is in that post now.

                          Like Van Jones, most of us who oppose Keystone XL can do more than one thing at a time. We have to fight this battle on many fronts. Some of us have been talking about green jobs for a long time.

                          I started doing it when Denis Hayes hired me to work at the Solar Energy Research Institute in 1978. (It's now the National Renewable Energy Lab.)

                          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                          by Meteor Blades on Thu May 30, 2013 at 08:59:11 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  ...and still Keystone will be built. (0+ / 0-)

                            That's the bottom line. Despite all of our efforts it will be built. We either learn from this or we will lose again.

                            I believe we need to not just talk about, but lead with, jobs,energy independence, and quality of life. Those all rate higher with the public than concern for the environment. Foretelling the end of the planet is sadly not working as it should.

                            If people do not take responsibility for our collective failure then that suggests to me they really do not understand the nature of the problem.

                            The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

                            by sebastianguy99 on Fri May 31, 2013 at 03:56:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

        •  Obama stands up to the majority whenever... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snoopydawg

          ...it is in the interests of the people who will fund his billionaire post-presidential life.

          Obama is the Chickenshit-in-Chief for failing to stand up to Republicans on all their phony scandals, from the "beer summit," to Van Jones, "death panels," Shirley Sherrod, contraception, Benghazi, and the IRS.

          by expatjourno on Thu May 30, 2013 at 03:23:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Right. (18+ / 0-)
      Haven't we failed and isn't the real scandal that we once again want President Obama to go against public opinion in order to make up for our failure?
      Yeah, WE are the scandal.  The administration doesn't fail us, we fail the administration.  

      You don't get a much more abject example of personality-driven loyalty than that.

      A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

      by MrJayTee on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:00:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who said anything about fealty to Obama? (4+ / 0-)

        This type of crap is a large part of why we fail. It is the same kind of authoritarian mindset as the wingnuts. "Agree with us or you are evil and worship Obama"!

        Opponents have failed to move public opinion within the Democratic Party and general public. Yet now we claim it would be a "betrayal" if President Obama approves what most in his party and the public at large approve of?

        That is some denial of reality and insulting me isn't going to change that fact.

        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:07:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then you'd like to revise your statement? (16+ / 0-)
          Haven't we failed and isn't the real scandal that we once again want President Obama to go against public opinion in order to make up for our failure?
          (Emphasis mine.)

          There is no rational excuse for the President to cave on KXL.  Please stop trying to excuse it in advance by blaming "us".

          And BTW, your statement is an insult to the many, many people here who have been talking, writing, blogging, contacting elected officials, and protesting to keep this issue in the public eye and get people talking.

          OUR failure?  What rubbish.

          A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

          by MrJayTee on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:15:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  hear hear (7+ / 0-)

            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

            by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:17:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So you haz hurt feelins, well ok then. (4+ / 0-)

            If you don't  accept responsibility for failing to get the public to agree with you on Keystone XL, then you aren't going to help the cause any way. It is up to those that believe we have to transition off of dirty energy to effectively advocate our position.

            I'm on your side when it comes to Keystone XL, but I just acknowledge we didn't get it done instead of throwing the blame elsewhere.

            But hey, if taking shots at me makes you feel good, go right ahead.

            The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

            by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:24:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  again here you are saying we didn't get it done (11+ / 0-)

              when the doing is still happening.

              Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

              by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:26:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  MrJayTee M.O. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Deep Texan
              But hey, if taking shots at me makes you feel good, go right ahead.

              I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

              by second gen on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:42:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Whoa! (9+ / 0-)

                I'm not the one who called you (and many, many others) a scandalous failure.  Or effectively said the President is too weak to stand up to polls.

                Haven't we failed and isn't the real scandal that we once again want President Obama to go against public opinion in order to make up for our failure?
                I don't think WE have failed until the matter is over.  And I don't think President Obama is too weak to make a decision contrary to the polls.  

                Do you think the President is too weak to make a decision contrary to the polls?

                I'm not giving up.

                A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

                by MrJayTee on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:58:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Indeed. I think it takes (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MrJayTee, expatjourno, quill, YucatanMan

                  more than a little courage to stand up against the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, to say nothing of the environmentalism he invokes in the occasional speech.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:09:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  My feelings? (8+ / 0-)

              You're not getting it.  My feelings are fine, I'm pointing out your falsehoods.

              *WE didn't fail.  Maybe you did, but WE didn't.  WE are still working instead of pre-excusing a possilbly catastrophic decision.  I'm not assuming the President will approve KXL.  

              He may well say no, but either way, we have to keep working.  The President has to make unpopular decisions all the time, and does.

              *Blaming people who have worked long and hard to stop KXL for "failure" is an insult.  You don't have to "haz hurt feelins" to understand that.

              A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

              by MrJayTee on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:49:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yeah, we failed, the thing is going to be built. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, Onomastic

                Built=failure. That's the only fact that matters in my opinion.

                If you can't deal with me, a person who doesn't support the building of Keystone, how the hell you ever going to persuade those that do not agree with you on the issue?

                What we are doing isn't working. We need to adapt and start winning. This change in strategy should not be dependent on any POTUS overriding public opinion but us changing public opinion.

                We are losing this battle but we can win the war if we are willingly to adapt. Now if you believe we are doing just fine and don't need to change strategies, then say so but stop pretending this is all on President Obama and we play no role.

                The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

                by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:05:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  rebranding it the Obama Tar Sands Pipeline is a (5+ / 0-)

                  new strategy. Maybe the knee jerk tea party haters of Obama will come out against it ; )

                  Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                  by greenbastard on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:21:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You're a fool if you think this is the end (0+ / 0-)

                  of the issue. You are a failure, not me. There's a blockade going on as we speak and it will be continued and expanded if Obama continues to ruin the planet.

                  Of course, he has ignored public opinion plenty of times before, but only when it was to run to the center and fuck over his base. You don't want to talk about that though, do you?

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Thu May 30, 2013 at 04:33:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I also make it clear in a response above (5+ / 0-)

          To Betty Pinson that the legislative branch is responsible, too.  We need leadership from both branches.  But since the matter is in the President's hands, we need him to draw a clear line here and make it stick.

          A slower bleed-out is not a sustainable value.

          by MrJayTee on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:20:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  "personality-driven loyalty" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MrJayTee, quill

        . . . I sometimes wonder if that's really what this site is all about.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:07:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Ahem, begging your pardon BUT (17+ / 0-)

      Obama is not running for anything and has absolutely no reason to "need" public opinion on his side. He can use the bully pulpit and make his case. Or not, as he chooses.

      Keystone is utterly filthy and one gigantic step backward on helping to heal our environment and in solving our energy problems. If the president believes in climate science, he should not approve it. If the president believe in alternative energy for replacing fossil fuels, he should not approve it. If the president believes in economic justice, he should not approve it.

      Van's right on this one. There aren't any other conclusions to be drawn.

      •  Stop shifting responsibility. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar, Deep Texan, Gator Keyfitz

        It is our responsibility, not any politician's. That is my point.

        I'm trying to head off the next Keystone, and there will be another monstrosity if we believe the failure was all about President Obama and not how we are prosecuting this issue.

        Stop with the stupid rox/sux stuff because it is nothing but a huge waste of time that needlessly divides us and helps entrench interests.

        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:10:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What? Because suggesting Obama can choose (6+ / 0-)

          whether or not to override public opinion is dividing us?? Well he can override and I sure as hell hope that he does. If that divides us, so be it.

          Obama has gone against the general sentiment before and, in some instances, been very courageous in doing so. I hope he does it again on this issue.

          I do hope we learn from Keystone but climate change deniers and the environmental-protection-is-bad-for-business crowd are winning hands down all across the country. The next Keystone?? Look around you at the fracking across the shale country. Look at the environmental destruction. What's going to be left to protect??

          I cannot stop this thing nor can you; Obama can. He has the power to stop this because of the international borders involved; we, whoever "we" is, do not. Without the border issue, this would be over and done, signed sealed and delivered to big energy.

          The president got the responsibility when he took the oath of office. It comes with the territory. Literally.

        •  Excuse me? (7+ / 0-)

          You're shifting responsibility away from the guy who could very well sign this nightmare to humanity.

          Just stop, please. You have made your same point, repeatedly.

          "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

          by lunachickie on Thu May 30, 2013 at 01:38:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I wanted to see a video exhorting (10+ / 0-)

      us to rally against the XL Pipeline. Laying out plans as how we were going to move forward in our effort to stop this from happening.
      It is disappointing that (my beloved) Van Jones chose to make this about the president's credibility and legacy. I expect that sort of cheap shot from the Republicans and their mouthpiece in the media.
      Let's stop making everything about the president.
      When he said, "Make me do it," I don't think he meant for us to attack the hell out of him over every issue.

      Again I say, when I look at pictures of people protesting during the civil rights marches, I have yet to see one sign with the name of a president on it.

      Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

      by JoanMar on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:31:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  agreed (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar, virginislandsguy, Onomastic

        -You want to change the system, run for office.

        by Deep Texan on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:34:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You aren't going to see that because it is easier (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar, PhillyJeff

        ..to blame Obama. We see that a lot on the Right and sadly it is the m.o. of certain segments claiming to be lefties.

        The politicians may be bought, and the system corrupt, but it is our duty to fix these things.

        by sebastianguy99 on Thu May 30, 2013 at 12:38:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, it is easier to blame the person (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bryduck, NoMoreLies, Nada Lemming

          who is actually responsible for this going through. I mean, why would we want to hold the person who is responsible for this actually responsible? God forbid.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 30, 2013 at 04:35:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  PROPOSE SOMETHING. Or stop saying over and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          over and over and over that we are failing and Obama is irrelevant in this situation.  He's not irrelevant; he's the President of the United States, whom many of us labored to elect in part because he said he'd defend the environment.  Nonetheless, I'd be open to the argument that we should have/could have been more effective in convincing people to oppose the Pipeline by now.  SO MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT IF YOU HAVE ONE.  Or write a separate diary about what we should do now.  Or write a diary publicizing whatever group you think is working in the right direction.

          Offer something constructive.

          If you think we should have been better at making our case to the public by now, it's about time you made your case to us -- some specific critiques and PROPOSALS.  If all you've got is "we failed, we failed, we failed" -- you've got nothing to offer and it would be better to get out of the way until you've worked out something specific you might want to say.

          The continual repetition of two concets -- we failed, don't blame the President -- isn't getting you anywhere.

          --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

          by Fiona West on Thu May 30, 2013 at 05:06:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I laugh when people address diarists who (9+ / 0-)

      use DKos as a publicity outlet. Van has 3 comments. They're all tip jars. Just like Cenk, and Sirota, and the rest of them. Once they determine they can write (or have someone write) a diary here, their fame will get them eyeballs, but they don't want to actually interact with you.

      I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

      by second gen on Thu May 30, 2013 at 11:40:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Approving KXL betrays the Earth's CLIMATE (6+ / 0-)

      and us, because we were told that he was a champion for the environment.

      You couldn't have possibly read the diary to be disappointed. Either that, or you're for KXL. And the latter is insanity.

      "The “Left” is NOT divided on the need to oppose austerity and the Great Betrayal. The Third Way is not left or center or even right. It is Wall Street on the Potomac."--Bill Black

      by lunachickie on Thu May 30, 2013 at 01:34:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So by that logic he should pass Medicare for All (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenbastard, quill, AoT

      that's supported by two-thirds of the country instead of his heritage foundation concocted plan that subsidized the health insurance industryf, right? Or shouldn't he have ended the war in Afghanistan years ago since that's when public opinion was dead set against it?

      Instead of supporting President Obama this argument portrays him in the worst possible light. As a weak leader whose decisions are not based in an intelligent examination of the facts, but instead as someone is willing to sacrifice those beliefs out of fear of going against public opinion.

      As Van Jones explained, the President already revealed his true beliefs when he spoke out against climate change in his second inaugural address. Now it's time for him to act in accordance with them, or not.

      "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

      by Jason Hackman on Thu May 30, 2013 at 02:04:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Tell me again how he can pass laws by decree. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JoanMar, virginislandsguy, Onomastic
        •  All he needs is public opinion to pass laws. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FG

          That was the premise of sebastianguy99's comment. Obama can only accomplish something with the help of public opinion. Except when he doesn't. As was the case with the ACA that to this day only has the support of one third of the country.

          If public opinion demands that he build the KXL Pipeline he must give in to the polls as he always does. Except when he doesn't. As was the case when he rejected Medicare for All as a viable healthcare option even though it had the support of 2/3rd's of Americans.

          You can see that the claim that the President requires public opinion to do anything is mistaken. President Obama will make his choice one way or the other and he'll own it. You can't blame that on the polls or the failure of activists to turn public opinion around because he has proved many times that those things are not the determining factors in his final decision.

          "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

          by Jason Hackman on Thu May 30, 2013 at 04:14:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He rejected it b/c it had no chance of passage. (0+ / 0-)

            Even a modest Medicare extension was killed by Lieberman.

            •  Like gun control? (0+ / 0-)

              Popular with no chance of passing. Gun control, he fights for until it sinks his approval rating. Medicare for all, he doesn't even bring up for debate.

              As I said, he makes his choice regardless of the popularity of the issue. To say Obama's decision on keystone is tied to public opinion and he's not responsible for making the decision to approve it is just lying to yourself. The president is willing to do unpopular things if he feels personally invested in it.

              "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

              by Jason Hackman on Fri May 31, 2013 at 01:10:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When did it sink his approval rating? (0+ / 0-)

                Healthcare reform passed, gun control didn't. Maybe it wasn't the greatest bill ever but it passed. Pushing solutions that had no chance of passing would have surely killed it. I never said that people are not responsible for their own decisions. But it is important to note that certain things that are considered blindingly obvious by many people (e.g. Keystone needs to be rejected) are actually quite unpopular.

                •  KXL doesn't require congressional votes (0+ / 0-)

                  unlike gun control and healthcare so public opinion is really required here. I really don't get this line of reasoning. He should cave to public opinion, because for some unexplainable reason it's necessary to stand up for his own convictions in this case, where it hasn't been necessary (or completely ignored) in many others. Got it. Uh, wait.... no.

                  Why don't you just admit this is a b.s. attempt to pre-emptively shield Obama from what undoubtedly will be an unpopular decision if he makes it? Because, let's face it, if he's jerked around on this for well over a year and still decides to approve KXL it'll piss progressives off in a big way that no amount of shielding will protect him from.

                  "If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." - Henry David Thoreau

                  by Jason Hackman on Sat Jun 01, 2013 at 02:02:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  So public opinion doesn't count? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jason Hackman

          He is completely fine going against public opinion when he needs to go to the center. When it comes to saving the planet not so much.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Thu May 30, 2013 at 04:37:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If healthcare decision was completely up to (0+ / 0-)

            him, you would have been right. But we know it's not the case which is my point. And we don't know how he's going to decide on Keystone.

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