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View Diary: Wolves: "Mission Accomplished" (106 comments)

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  •  Hunters have driven many species to extinction (7+ / 0-)

    Why wouldn't we fear them, since too many have no sense of ecology and why different species exist?

    In the area where I live, they drove deer, bear, elk, and some other species to extinction. They had to reintroduce them, at least the ones that existed in other places.

    The Elk they decimated are gone forever. Larger elk from the Rockies have been introduced, but they are more destructive than the original species was because they are larger and more aggressive.

    Unregulated hunting = extinction of species, or at least a tendency to only take the healthiest, leaving genetically deficient and diseased animals to reproduce.

    Regulated hunting can lead to the animals being afraid of humans, which makes them less likely to be a problem, which is good. But, it has to be regulated, because many hunters just don't care about preserving species. Not all, but enough to be a problem.

    Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 02:20:44 PM PDT

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    •  Those were subsistance hunters prior to modern (0+ / 0-)

      game management. All state agencies follow the basic blueprint laid out by Aldo Leopold in his seminal book Game Management.

      In modern times hunters are the only ones that protect and conserve species. Who do you think pays for wolves?

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 02:27:24 PM PDT

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      •  No they weren't. Bison were driven (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ColoTim, Tonedevil, Agathena, divineorder

        to near extinction both for sport and for the skins. The meat was left to rot in the prairies.

        Big "sporting" adventures were organized to shoot rounded up bison for fun.  People bragged back home how many they'd killed.

        It simply is not the case that all extinctions are driven by subsistence hunters.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 02:44:50 PM PDT

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        •  A lot was also done to take food away from (5+ / 0-)

          the Native Americans so they would be restricted to reservations.

          Over-hunting has led to the extinction of many animals.  Passenger Pigeons are another of North America's great extinctions caused not by a need to eat them, but more for sport and because nobody could conceive of the extinction of such an abundant species.

          •  what? You and Yucatan can't read? (0+ / 0-)
            Those were subsistance hunters prior to modern
            game management. All state agencies follow the basic blueprint laid out by Aldo Leopold in his seminal book Game Management.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 03:25:58 PM PDT

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            •  We were both taking issue with your implication (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              that the extinction of species was totally driven by subsistence hunting.  We were pointing out other reasons extinctions happened that had no connection with subsistence or even game management, but were from other reasons - wanton slaughter without any relation to management for sustainability and political calculations that extinction was a good outcome.  I take issue with your implication that modern management is taking place wrt wolves - they had it and then politicians overruled wildlife biologists and the slaughter has resumed.

              •  interesting theory but conjecture means not much (0+ / 0-)

                you might want to find an instance of politicians over ruling wildlife biologists or modern hunters leading to extinction.

                I mean you can't just make things up. oh, yes you can.

                How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                by ban nock on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 02:28:42 PM PDT

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      •  Modern game management is what we're trying (6+ / 0-)

        to have in the areas where the wolves live, but that's not what a return to open season on wolves leads to.  That leads back to the extinction of the wolves which leads to overpopulation of deer and elk (amongst many) which then leads to over-browsing of trees, increased soil erosion, warmer streams because trees don't shadow them anymore leading to changes in fish species, not to mention more diseases from the increased crowding of the species that would be hunted and thinned by the wolves.

        In Colorado, the fees for helping manage fish and game come from the hunting and fishing licenses.  Very little revenue comes from access fees to state parks, boating licenses and the like.  There's a series of commercials where hikers are walking up to hunters and fishermen to "hug a hunter" and thank them for helping to preserve Colorado's land not just for the wildlife but for hikers and other outdoor enthusiasts.  That's the reality in Colorado.  

        Changes to hunting in the northern Rockies, however, back to the earlier "kill 'em all" is not based on modern game management - it's purely political based on local politics where what feels good - killing the wolves so you're no longer afraid (and this goes to bears as well, though bears don't roam in packs and let their howls be heard for miles across the night) is so anti-science and anti-animal health that it should continue to be criminal.

        •  There is no "kill em all" in the Northern Rockies (0+ / 0-)

          go to the web sites of the fish and wildlife divisions of the states involved. Those policies are designed by wildlife biologists, and they are very good at managing all species. Look at the wolf populations so far.

          The over browsing myth is myth.
          Science is self correcting on wolves

          You can't become informed if you stick to advocacy sources. Howling For The Heck Of It is not interested in educating you.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 03:32:08 PM PDT

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          •  "kill em all" is closer to the truth than the idea (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            that the wolf population is managed for sustainability.  No, the wildlife managers aren't doing it, but the hunters and ranchers seem to be freely killing wolves.

          •  Well, I'm sticking with my BS and MS in (1+ / 0-)
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            natural resources and outdoor recreation management where I took numerous courses in wildlife biology, wildlife management and such.  But I guess my studies were hopelessly biased.

            •  did they teach you that having a hunch of a (0+ / 0-)

              feeling trumps facts? If you took wildlife management in University why are you making obviously false claims about the wildlife management plans of the northern rockies. Shouldn't you base statements about wildlife management on facts? Oh, maybe not, where did you go to school? Santa Cruz?

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 05:19:44 AM PDT

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      •  yeah, and they drove a lot of things extinct (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, Agathena


        Touch all that arises with a spirit of compassion

        by Mindful Nature on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 03:35:09 PM PDT

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