Skip to main content

View Diary: Zimmerman Jury Selection Begins (118 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Though unwelcome to many or most of us here, (4+ / 0-)

    it is good to hear this reality-based perception.

    However, I also read that none of Z's DNA was recovered from underneath T's fingernails, while Z told police that T had been banging Z's head against the pavement.

    If I have that right, it would tend to discredit Z's version of events, no? (I have not been following this closely; sorry if this has already been discussed)

    Mark E. Miller // Kalamazoo Township Trustee // MI 6th District Democratic Chair

    by memiller on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:47:50 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  If so, expect battle of experts. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, Demeter Rising

      If that's the issue, then expect the defense to have an expert saying one thing, and the prosecution to have an expert saying the opposite. The jury will decide which expert is more persuasive.

      "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

      by HeyMikey on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:59:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't mean to be hounding you, but I can't (0+ / 0-)

        help but think of pictures of people in demonstrations that have had their heads smashed against the pavement. There was blood everywhere.

        Could the prosecution use pictures like these?

        Bleeding from a head wound is notoriously profuse.  The tiny little nicks produced way more blood because they were head wounds.

        give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

        by 88kathy on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 10:11:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Specifics. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy

          I doubt that is something that can be answered by strangers speculating on the internet. The experts will testify about what important facts are resolved and not resolved by the evidence. There are a million possible reasons why the court might choose to allow or not allow this or that evidence. Wait and see what the witnesses to the incident say, what the expert witnesses say, what the lawyers argue. Then the judge will decide what issues are important, and what additional evidence is appropriate to clarify those issues.

          "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

          by HeyMikey on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 11:13:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It really just depends. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy, stellaluna

          Gory, in-color photographs are a toss-up.  A good rule of thumb is that the proponent (the side that wants to bring the photos) has to prove some reason for bringing them other than just...gore for the sake of gore.  They have to be used to prove something that is in dispute.  Again, this is just a rough rule of thumb.  

          One compromise that courts use with some frequency is to require the photos to be black & white.  Which sounds silly, but it does make them somewhat more tolerable to look at.  

          •  I guess just being around the people is bad (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            misslegalbeagle

            enough.

            I was called for jury duty at the end of the year. They had the whole room full of people but every trial kept settling before the jury was needed. So we sat around a lot.

            Then they started excusing people from the pool to go home. I let other people go first because my time was employer paid.

            I got to talking to a gal who said she had been on a jury for a murder trial years before and that the horror of the trial stayed with her for years and years.

            The next round when they asked if people wanted to be excused, I was the first in line.

            I was thinking the photos show the propensity of a head wound to produce more bleeding than other wounds. That is how the tiny little nicks look like his nose is coming off. A guy who suffered his head being smashed into the pavement would probably look like his head was coming off. Gore.

            give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

            by 88kathy on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:22:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've seen some pretty grisly stuff doing violent (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              amsterdam

              crimes, but the victim's families are always what gets me.  I have a strong stomach - bring on the autopsy photos, the crime scene techs, the ME, whatever.  But put a grieving husband/wife/child/mother/sibling on the stand and...well...that's the tough stuff for me.  

      •  No, jury will rely on their own sensibilities... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        True North, libnewsie, ladybug53

        in a case like this, and focus on how Martin came to be where he was, how Zimmerman came to a situation where he so closely confronted Martin that things escalated to lethal force.  Zimmerman's going to have an impossible task to convincingly construct a scenario where a jury won't conclude that Zimmerman was the one who unnecessarily initiated an aggressively close, hostile confrontation with Martin, regardless of how the physical escalation proceeded from there.  That's exactly why the fact that Martin was in the neighborhood accompanying his father as an invited guest of a resident thereof is a crucial fact; if Martin had been a stranger to the neighborhood with no convincing business being there except potentially casing houses for burglaries, Zimmerman would have far stronger chances of getting the jury to buy that Martin was the one responsible for initiating and escalating the confrontation to the point where "stand your ground" applies.

        •  That all depends. (5+ / 0-)

          The prosecution will urge the jury to do just as you suggest.

          The defense will urge the jury to look at the fact that there's no witness about the critical aspects of those things except Zimmerman; and that if they have some reasonable doubt about whether Zimmerman's account might be true, then they have to acquit. (I assume Zimmerman's testimony will set out the elements of a valid self-defense claim under Florida law.)

          It's impossible at this stage to say which way the jury will see it. Both outcomes are plausible. So much depends on whether any witness blurts out something especially stupid or saw/heard something especially probative one way or the other. Remember O.J.'s bloody glove, and "if it doesn't fit, you must acquit?" Who saw that coming, before the trial started? In live court, shit happens.

          "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

          by HeyMikey on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 01:13:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The OJ case was lost on prosecutorial incompetence (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil, alice kleeman

            Christopher Darden should have been fired for that boneheaded move.

          •  It is not true (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            libnewsie, Tonedevil

            that there are no witnesses to the critical aspects of the case. There are 5 witnesses that have GZ on top the moment or seconds after the shot was fired.

            DeeDee is an ear witness to the start of the incident. An ear witness backs up the words used according to DeeDee.

            GZ is only a witness if he gets on the stand. His statements do not fit the evidence and he changed his story everytime he told it.

            Trayvon's body was found 45 ft south from the T where GZ said Trayvon hit him to the ground.

            The trajectory of the bullet is directly front to back and not consistent with GZ being on the botom.

            46% of Seminole county voted for Obama. Not every white person there is a racist. The best the defense can get, is a hung jury.

    •  I think that the claim of self defense (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil

      is not going to be credible. It seems to me that GZ will have to take the stand to assert that claim, because there is almost no forensic evidence to back it up. The 911 evidence will tend to show that GZ initiated the confrontation, which will work against him. GZ probably outweighed TM by 50 pounds or so and had a couple inches of height on him, so I doubt that any reasonable jury will give credit to the notion that GZ needed to shoot him to protect himself.

      Then again, given the location, anything can happen. I'd give it 50-50. Obviously, I have formed an opinion.

      Note to Boehner and McConnell: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." --Bob Dylan-- (-7.25, -6.21)

      by Tim DeLaney on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:01:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  TM was taller, Zimmerman heavier but not by (0+ / 0-)

        that much.
        Zimmerman used to be very heavy, then lost it so he was no longer heavy (you can see it in his arrest photo). Since the crime, he's gained weight again some it seems.

        Initially when we saw the pics of Martin he was short, like a child. Some called that manipulative but really, at 17 he'd probably shot up in height only in the last few years. Probably the first pics available the parents grabbed. Maybe their grieving hearts selected the sweet ones of when he was a bit younger. It needed have been planned.

        IIRC Martin was about five eleven at the time of his death. Zimmerman is several inches, at least, shorter. IIRC at the time I figured out they were about 20-30lbs apart. Zim was about 170, Trayvon 145-150 and a bean pole as many young men are at that age.

        •  The exact figures on record are -- (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, amsterdam

          Martin: 5' 11", 156 lbs (autopsy report)
          Zimmerman: 5' 8", 204 lbs (doctor's records the day after)

          So Zimmerman was 3 inches shorter, and 48 pounds heavier. In an on-the-ground grappling situation, that would give Zimmerman a considerable advantage.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site