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View Diary: Zimmerman Jury Selection Begins (118 comments)

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  •  listen to the audio (1+ / 0-)
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    True North

    At the links provided are the audio statements of the two EMTs who cleaned up Zimmerman: O'Rourke and Livingston.  They tell the cop that it looks like he has a broken nose and that he might need stitches.  (This is probably where Zimmerman overhead them saying he broke his nose).  They offered to take him to the hospital but the cop said the SPD would take care of it.   Zimmerman didn't refuse the ambulance ride at that point. The cop refused it for him.  The cops later asked him a few times if he needed to go to the ER and he said no and that he wasn't sure what to do.  (I think this was in Serino's report and/or officer T. Smitb)

    I know the paramedics aren't qualified to make a diagnosis and that's why "broken nose" wasn't in the EMS report.  However, these people were all eyewitnesses at the scene and have probably taken numerous calls to bar fights or domestic violence situations where they have seen many broken noses.  This can all be established on the witness stand.   They will be allowed to offer their lay opinion based on their first hand exam of Zimmerman and their prior experiences and the jury can decide if they are believable or not.  

    Having some random person testify what they saw in a picture on the Internet is not going to be nearly as convincing as what the EMTs say and of course it's not going to be as convincing as a doctor holding up an xray showing the fracture lines.    So lets say the x-ray and the MD are 100% proof of broken nose.  Based on their stories I would give the EMTs a 75-80% chance of correctly assessing the broken nose and since two of them corroborate the same story the probability goes up to 90% (at least in my mind).  

    Lots of the facts in the case are going to turn this way.  In most instances you won't have that ironclad 100% proof of something that happened.   So you have to build the case where many facts and testimony add up together to get you closer to that 100%.  But it will never be perfect.  That's why the jury has a hard job to do.  

    Finally, why did the FDLE interview the Fire Dept. and ask their opinions of Zimmerman's injuries if the information wasn't relevant or dependable?

    •  When I read your... (1+ / 0-)
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      statistical analyses of the likelihood of the EMTs being correct I realized where the old saying 67% of all statistics are made up on the spot came from.

      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

      by Tonedevil on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 09:23:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I said that was in my mind (1+ / 0-)
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        I'm not trying to define an absolute here.  What I mean to say is that you, and most importantly, every jury member is free to assign their own weight to the evidence and testimony on a scale that goes from 0 to 100% certainty.  
        If you have good reason to believe that the EMTs are lying and protecting Zimmerman - which can be elicited in cross-exam or via some other evidence - then the percentages obviously go down.  Maybe it was their first day on the job and they've never treated a patient in their life.  That would also lower their credibility IMO(!).

        I don't think the prosecution is going to spend a whole lot of time trying to discredit them because the value of confirming the nose was broken isn't going to decide the case one way or the other.  Again this is my opinion.  

        •  We definitely agree... (2+ / 0-)
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          Demeter Rising, amsterdam

          I don't think the prosecution is going to spend a whole lot of time trying to discredit them if it gets to be an issue at all I would say something like 'how did you come to the conclusion that Mr. Zimmerman's nose was broken' is going to be the prosecutions question. That and maybe something about the recommendation for followup treatment.

          This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

          by Tonedevil on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:40:12 AM PDT

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    •  thanks (2+ / 0-)
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      Tonedevil, amsterdam

      All of the comments here have been helpful.

      I saw the EMT report online, with nothing about a broken nose. i haven't listened to audio.

      Yep, they can come in and testify about what they saw, and their conclusions. Qualified paramedics can. It doesn't really matter what conclusions are drawn by a driver who isn't a qualified paramedic, no matter how many bar fights and broken noses he or she has seen.

      If paramedics are writing up a report at the scene of a violent death, I think they should include broken noses (or possible broken noses) in their written reports. They should also be assertive in telling the patient and the cops in whose care he is that he should go to ER forthwith, and note that in the report.

      You can't make them go, if they don't want to. I don't think the police should be questioning somebody until after he or she has been checked out by a doctor, if there is a possible broken bone.

      And, as we see in this case, some clarity on what the defendant's actual injuries were, as determined by a doctor, are beneficial for the course of justice.

    •  The EMTs already compromised their credibility... (2+ / 0-)
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      Tonedevil, amsterdam

      ...when Kevin O'Rourke testified at Zimmerman's bond hearing the Zimmerman's head was 45% covered in blood when pictures taken before the EMTs arrived show that such was clearly not the case.

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