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  •  this (0+ / 0-)
    The fact of the matter is that these programs do not significantly contribute to our freedom or safety
    is pure opinion

    In the time that I have been given,
    I am what I am

    by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:45:03 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Right, and you have proof that they contribute (0+ / 0-)

      to our safety?

      It seems reasonable to say that the onus would be on the side that wants to infringe on our rights to show that what they want to do will be effective.

      Of course, we know absolutely nothing about these programs except what this leak has told us. We don't even know if they're legal.

      And no, it isn't pure opinion. It based on the fact that the threat of terrorism is overblown and absurd. You can worry about the horrible terrorists who are coming to kill us all but really, that's a myth built by movies and the government. There are a minuscule number of terrorist groups out there, if you want to go around pushing the line of the fear mongers that's fine. I'm done taking the word of the government for this bullshit.

      And again, I don't see you claiming it makes us safer. You aren't really making any claims about it's effectiveness. No one who is defending this really is.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 05:53:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you are the one making the claim here (0+ / 0-)

        and actually we know a great deal

        In the time that I have been given,
        I am what I am

        by duhban on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 06:44:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We know so much that you have no info (0+ / 0-)

          To respond with. If you're going to say we know a lot then you need to lay out what we know. You're making the positive claim. What do we know.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:49:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  rofl (0+ / 0-)

            look you haven't even demonstrated you understand what PRISM is and isn't let alone that it ever broke the law.

            So no what ever you think you know I doubt you actually know it.

            How about we start with you actually demonstrating even a fundamental grasp of how packet traffic works?

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:36:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand packet routing perfectly well (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              duhban

              Which is why I know that "telephony data" includes data that is not just about who we called but also about where our phone is at all times because they need that info to route calls.

              But you want what, a discussion of the various network layers, physical, etc? I've lost my witty t-shirt that added the user layer on top as the weakest link in the security. As illustrated perfectly by this leak I might add. Or did you want to talk about what's contained in various packet headers? Or would you prefer to talk about switching equipment and how the phone companies proce gouged customers for various features once ESS7 was installed. I mean $3 a month for features that cost them nothing and now people get them for "free" on their mobiles.

              Colecting telephony metadata is a method of tracking people, in this case the NSA, an agency that has stated again and again that they don't spy on Americans, is colleting data that allows them to track Americans. And then they want us to believe that they are ever so careful with this so it just isn't misused. Right, and I've got a bridge to sell you.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:24:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  then I am confused (0+ / 0-)

                becuase I now know you have an electronics background so you even potentially understand the dynamics of the internet even better then I do.

                So you should know that what PRISM was looking at was not personal data and that indiscriminate data mining is not only technologically infeasible but counterproductive.

                So you should now that most of the claims being made are hyperbolistic and grounded in misunderstandings

                So I am confused

                In the time that I have been given,
                I am what I am

                by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 12:45:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't know what most people are claiming (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  duhban

                  that PRISM and the other program revealed were looking at. To my knowledge PRISM was the program directed outside the US and the other program was focusing on telephony metadata. The latter is what concerns me given the extent of what telephony metadata includes. Technically text messages are metadata, or are at least included in the metadata. I would bet that the NSA is lying about not getting content, specifically in regards to text messages.

                  What concerns me just as much is the fact that this is not just about who people call. Metadata includes a lot more than just a list of the numbers that you've called. It includes routing data that wil give your location, at least as specifically as the closest cell tower, possibly more specifically depending on whether the cell tower data is included in the metadata or not. Which means that the NSA has been collecting data that allows them to track every single American with a cell phone. Remember, that metadata isn't just calls, The network needs to know where you are at all times so it can route potential calls to you. And it needs to know where you are when you get texts. That's the metadata.

                  And that's what we have confirmation of them storing. We know they have the ability and storage capability to capture content as well, and it's only their word that they aren't doing so. So, when people are saying this confirms all their worst fears it may be a bit of hyperbole but it's also completely understandably. I've been accused of spreading CT and specifically not talked aboutthe NSA being able to track our movements through phones here on DK because it could get me banned. This leak proves that they have been collecting that infomation and that's very new and very important. I realy don't understand why some people seem to be perfectly fine with this. Or at least fine enough to say that it isn't a big deal.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:43:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  okay (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    so that makes sense and yes exactly what they are doing with the metadata is something I would like to hear more about.

                    And look as I have said before elsewhere the Patriot Act needs to be revoked and a new bill needs to be passed with clearer guidelines as to what is and isn't being authorized. I have never liked the Patriot Act, yes I think that certain things like PRISM and even possibly the program you are talking about are necessary evils int his day and age. I don't know if what you have talked about before is even possible but I do know the world has never been smaller before and just like you don't get to shout fire in a theater  we need to talk about digital rights in a digital age.

                    In the time that I have been given,
                    I am what I am

                    by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 08:48:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Can you write a diary in (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      duhban

                      Favor of repealing the patriot act? I'll rec it. I think that could be reasonable to ask.

                      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                      by AoT on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 10:56:15 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can try, it will be a few days (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT

                        I almost am finally done with Phosphourous and want to get that out on Sunday, I probably can write something on Saturday

                        In the time that I have been given,
                        I am what I am

                        by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:21:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  We can be safe (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lisa

          and still have our freedom.
          In regards to the militia, I would think back then if they thought they were a threat, they could follow the LAW and get warrents.
          I can't believe you are willing to give up your freedom to be safe.
          Doesn't matter what you want or believe anyway.
          The US is supposed to be a Nation of laws.
          What part of the 4th Amendment do you NOT understand?  

          Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

          by snoopydawg on Tue Jun 11, 2013 at 09:52:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's the thing though (0+ / 0-)

            this was following the LAW or at least nothing has been shown to counter that statement.

            What part of that do you NOT understand?

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 01:37:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The part that states (0+ / 0-)

              Congress shall NOT pass....................
              They did. They broke the 4th Amendment.
              Are you really this naive in understanding what that means?

              Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

              by snoopydawg on Wed Jun 12, 2013 at 11:31:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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