Skip to main content

View Diary: Arctic Methane found at "Amazing Levels" by NASA (199 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  The deniers aren't as big a problem... (74+ / 0-)

    ...anymore as the delayers. Deniers are looking to an ever-wider audience like the idiots we've always known them to be. But the delayers—the folks who accept the scientific evidence and may even themselves laugh at the deniers—argue that doing anything right now or too quickly will hurt the economy, can't get through Congress, piss off the Big Energy companies. Some, like the Breakthrough Institute guys say we have to wait until we have better technology to solve the problem.

    Delay is denial.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:42:09 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Two tines of the same fork (26+ / 0-)

      They are really complimentary efforts backed by the very same interests.   Sometimes you get a denier and a delayer in the same person.  The deniers muddy the waters for a certain percentage of the population and the delayers pick up another percentage.  
      Together, even if the sum total is a minority, they can hold off change.

      These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel. Abraham Lincoln

      by Nailbanger on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:53:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This was telling (25+ / 0-)

        in the basic understanding of climate change, scientists have known that the effect of doubling CO2 concentrations increased the heating effect based on a logarithmic function.

        at the 6th annual conference on climate change held by the Heartland Institute, a climate scientist and a climate skeptic (who happens to put out an alternative satellite-based temperature measurement that skews temperatures down and is used almost exclusively by the skeptic community) debated the science of climate change.

        at the very end of the debate there were questions.  The last question was posed by Dr. Fred Singer (former tobacco lobby hack and founder of the marshall institute)  he was trying to convince the scientists that CO2 was at "saturation"

        you can see the video here:

        http://www.youtube.com/...

        What it shows is that the people hired by the fossil fuel industry to cloud the debate about climate change, don't have any real understanding of climate change but are rather using their credentials to make money as a public relation's agent for denial and delay.

        Dr Fred Singer has a Ph.D. in physics. . .he should know better.

      •  Well, the Republican Party (22+ / 0-)

        can definitely be classed under "denier."  Unfortunately, Our Brave Party can just as easily be classed under "delayer."

        Perhaps this is exactly what you had in mind?

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:24:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes. There are way too many delayers... (23+ / 0-)

          ...among the Democrats (a majority, indeed, among those in Congress). But there are many who are not. And in several states, where we've seen considerable action in the right direction, there are majorities of elected Democrats who are not delayers. The objective, obviously, is to move more Democrats (rank and file, too) out of the delayer camp.

          Some things I'd like to see in this regard:

          More co-sponsors of Boxer-Sanders's sustainability and carbon-pricing bills.

          Ditto for a bipartisan bill by Shaheen-Portman.

          Reintroduction with lots of co-sponsors on Sanders's 2011 10 Million Solar Rooftops proposal, which made it out of committee but never got a floor vote.

          Now, these are small potatoes compared to what is truly needed. But they would start the ball rolling.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:47:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You know as well as I do (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            k9disc, lehman scott, maryabein

            that those small potatoes would be triangulated into oblivion by Our Own Party with Rethug support.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:26:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Solution? n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              divineorder

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:07:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  is posted under the wrong comment (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                maryabein

                and linked herewith.

                Camus and his friend Sisyphus say hi.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:09:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What's tedious is the complaint... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sturunner, KenBee, bigjacbigjacbigjac

                  ...that many Democrats are in the way without offering practical (or even impractical) proposals for how to get them out of the way. Camus was no cynic.

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:18:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sometimes the truth is tediou. (5+ / 0-)

                    There are no proposals that stand a chance of being realized.

                    And of course Camus was no cynic; a cynic would say "f*ck it all; don't bother trying."  Camus realized that the fact that a worthwhile or necessary goal cannot be reached should not dissuade one from trying anyway.

                    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                    by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:40:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Push for IRV. nt (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ginny in CO

                Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                by k9disc on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 04:08:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  solution is our charismatic president (0+ / 0-)

                uses his rhetorical gifts to make the case - to convince the people that now is the time. that we can't wait.

                or that's at least part of the solution.

                as it is now, there is no pressure on Congress to do anything.

                An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                by mightymouse on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:32:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Here's a thought. What if several of the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Oh Mary Oh

                billionaires who do support the climate science were to finance the installation of some part of the 10 million solar rooftop proposal? It would not only boost the solar industry presumably making it more competitive but it could change some hearts and minds. We have private sector money financing all sorts of nefarious projects, why not private sector money to finance this? I mean where are the Art Popes of the left?

                Force is the midwife of every old society pregnant with a new one. Marx

                by Marihilda on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 08:35:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Meanwhile, do you think that our (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            divineorder

            forthcoming wars with Syria and Iran will be just as "eco-friendly" and "sustainable" as the ones in Afghanistan and Libya?

            Maybe Our Party -- which is the true Green Party, or better, the TruGreen Party -- can sell offsets for the wars its leadership is engaging us in.  How much would an offset for blowing up a refinery cost?

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:59:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Pressure for federal legislation is important, but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Oh Mary Oh

            I (and I suspect you and most others here) are more optimistic about federalism being the solution -- with progress at the state level being more likely for now, with the almost hopeless teabagger (and yes, some collusive Democratic-abetted) paralysis and obstruction in Congress.

            I personally think limited progressive resources should be shifted at least somewhat more than they are to funding candidates and agendas in the proverbial "laboratories of democracy" like California, Washington State, Oregon, and others that have made some progress.

            Meahwhile, most federal-level efforts for now should be primarily aimed at lobbying sympathetic (or non) Congresscritters and the White House to prevent Washington DC from getting in the way of such state-led efforts (as they did, obviously, very much get in the way during the Cheney-Bush administration -- case in point with the John Dingell-led disruption of CA's CAFE standards improvement efforts).

            "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

            by Kombema on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 06:15:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  and before you come back with (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maryabein

          the inevitable tedious rejoinder: Of course one should try.  But we all know the outcome.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:27:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Then there are people like me (6+ / 0-)

        Who think it has already tipped and what we have already done has committed us to a sequence of further irreversible consequences so that what we are proposing to do about it is too little too late.

        If we all agreed to spend and do whatever it takes right now, spend out entire GDP for the next thirty years on climate change mediation that wouldn't do the job to save the oceans, the rainforests, keep atmospheric oxygen levels high enough to be breathable, and our cities from slipping beneath the waves.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 09:24:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's what the delayers were going for (21+ / 0-)

          They help keep the myths going. Only the real bubble dwellers don't believe it's happening at all. The delayers deny the scientific consensus and keep insisting we can't know for sure that it's anthropogenic. They do that on purpose so that they can throw up their hands and say 'oh well there's nothing we can do about it now' after we've reached a tipping point they know is coming.

          Now that feedback loops have begun, I have no doubt that they'll skip right over the fact that it was anthropogenic warming that caused the permafrost to start melting and blame future warming on the permafrost. They'll call it a natural cycle and keep extracting the last bit of wealth out of the fossil fuel industries they've built. 'Oh well....the permafrost is releasing methane. Reducing C02 won't make a dent so let's not rock the economic boat any more than it already is being rocked by all the disasters.' I can hear it now.

          I can only hope that their participation in creating and maintaining the denier/delayer subterfuge can someday be used in a court of law to strip them of their ill begotten wealth. We'll certainly need the money for mitigation and disaster relief. They know it's real, just like the tobacco companies knew what their products were doing.

          We are past a tipping point but we can't just give up on trying to at least mitigate the destruction. We have to try.

          "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

          by Siri on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:19:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I define delayers as different than you do... (20+ / 0-)

            ...To me, they AREN'T the ones who say it may not be AGW. They agree that it is. They just say that we don't have to move immediately or that doing so is blocked by too many obstacles (like Big Energy interests and public demands for energy-profligate consumption).

            The impact of their inaction may be the same as with those you define as delayers. But I actually give the delayers who accept AGW less credit than true-believer deniers. They KNOW better and STILL won't act.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:58:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is exponentially worse indeed (8+ / 0-)

              I can't even imagine what future generations dealing with the catastrophic results of our inaction will make of this madness.

              "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

              by Siri on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:22:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  but WHAT actions ? ? ? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, lehman scott, mightymouse

              Most currently proposed actions won't accomplish much if anything in the immediate time frame where constructive action is needed.  KXL is on example . . . while the whole idea of tar sand extraction folly needs to be squashed for all the obvious reasons stopping KXL has no present effect and modest if any near term (20 years out) effect either.  To focus effort on (relatively) distant future reductions (if even that is accomplished . . . there are plenty of other oil sources that can and will be consumed instead) is itself a form of delay.

              Meanwhile a significant portion of the remaining environmental "action" is devoted to maintaining or even increasing coal and natural gas consumption (witness Germany and Japan) and I see exactly no "action items" on the environmental agenda directed at significant and near-term reduction of CO2 emissions.  So who is doing the "delaying" ? ? ?

              Every world energy budget I see tells me that we'll be at (or terminally close to) 450ppm CO2 in 20 years, without a ghost of a chance of even maintaining, let alone getting back below, 400ppm.

              What action could we be taking now that would change that?

              Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

              by Deward Hastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:12:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  reducing soot (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades, mightymouse

                is a relatively easy first step - and it's already known that it helps.

                (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

                by PJEvans on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:39:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that seems to be the new (0+ / 0-)

                  "in thing" . . . so what shall we do?

                  My personal "soot" footprint is zero (I don't drive a grease car, or cook with bio-fuel, or burn candles), so there's not much I can do here at home.  I was one of the proponents of cleaning up local (diesel) busses, but that was years ago, for "public health" reasons, and they're mostly fixed.  There's still some room for improvement with trucks, but I don't see anywhere near the diesel exhaust that I used to (UPS trucks are notably "clean" now).  I'm game to impose whatever controls we can on ocean shipping . . . how shall that be approached?

                  In any case "soot" from California is going to have no impact in the Arctic . . . it will be long gone before the prevailing winds get it there . . . and negligible impact over the ocean where most heat capture occurs (the winds just don't blow that way, and soot wouldn't change the albedo) of seawater if they did).

                  So that leaves the places where diesel exhaust and cooking over cow dung and unregulated power plant emissions really are a problem . . . and I have no say there at all.  Africa, India, Indonesia, Southeast Asia . . . none of them can afford rapid imposition of pollution controls, and neither my government nor my self are in any position to borrow money to help them (I'm retired, and my government is busy preparing to bomb Syria and will have to borrow to do that).  Maybe a little "gentle persuasion" could be tried on China . . . I'll send a letter to their embassy telling them that unless they clean up the air in Beijing I won't be taking a vacation there this lfetime, but I suspect that they're working on it already for their own good reasons and won't be much influenced by my threats of boycott.

                  So . . . what are you doing to "reduce soot", how can I help, and what additional efforts do you think I might undertake?

                  Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                  by Deward Hastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 08:50:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  In Germany, it is NOT the case that... (13+ / 0-)

                ...increasing coal consumption is the direction things are going. This is a distortion declared because new coal plants are being built but the propagandists are not taking into account that more capacity is being retired than is replacing it and the new plants are more efficient.

                18.5 gigawatts of coal power capacity are slated to be retired by 2020 and only 11.3 gigawatts will be newly installed. These new plants will also be more efficient, at 43% vs. the 35% of the decommissioned plants. Moreover, these plants are designed to assist the country in making the conversion to renewables happen by providing flexible, fast start-up power. power-to-gas (methane) turbine plants will be a part of this effort. Germany is very much on target for 35% renewable in 2020 and all indications are that it will meet its goal 85% renewable by 2050 (although that latter prediction has all the caveats of any long-term forecast).

                Greenhouse gas emissions fell 2.9% in Germany in 2011 and rose 1.6% in 2012, mostly due to the shutdown of 40% of the nation's nuclear capacity. But the growth in renewables reduced what that increase would have been last year if renewables were not being pushed so hard. Expectations are for a drop again in 2013. So there IS significant action directed toward near-term reduction.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:05:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  But how much CO2 reduction (0+ / 0-)

                  would there have been if Germany hadn't shut down the nuclear until they had the renewables to replace them?

                •  disingenuous at best . . . (0+ / 0-)

                  German companies build coal fired plants in Poland, contract to buy the power they produce, and then tout the "reduction" of coal fired generation in Germany.

                  http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/...

                  http://blogs.wsj.com/...

                  http://www.economist.com/...

                  Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                  by Deward Hastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 03:06:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The entire EU saw a drop of 50 gigatons... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...of CO2 emissions in 2012. In the very short run, that will flatten out. But by 2020, emissions will be lower.

                    The Industrial Emissions Directive requires far stricter emissions standards that will force the phase-out of many older coal plants (which Poland uses for two-thirds of the 85% of electricity generated from coal). By 2020, Poland is slated to be 20% below its allowances under the Kyoto Protocol.

                    The International Energy Agency notes:

                    A range of advanced combustion technologies has been developed to improve the efficiency of lignite-fired power generation. Today’sstate-of-the-art lignite-fired power plants in operation in Germany have achieved energy efficiencies as high as 43%, putting lignite plantsin a similar position as modern hard coal-based power plants. With modern technologies it is now possible to produce electricity economically from lignite while addressing environmental concerns.
                    Some information on how that heightened efficiency has been achieved is here.

                    The Economist, which has a long record of attacking renewables policies, nevertheless states this in the article you cite:

                    Does this mean the current surge in coal demand is a blip? Tom Brookes of the European Climate Foundation, a non-governmental organisation based in The Hague, says yes. In 2008 Europe’s utilities had plans for 112 new coal plants. Since then, 73 have been abandoned and nothing further has happened with 14, so he reckons a huge amount of coal capacity will be lost as existing plants are shut down over the next 12 to 18 months. All the same, that still leaves two dozen new plants planned or under construction. Moreover, if you count the number of applications for permits to build coal-fired power stations—as the World Resources Institute, a think-tank in Washington, DC, does—the number of planned new coal plants in Europe is much higher: 69, with a proposed capacity of over 60 gigawatts, roughly equivalent to the capacity of the 58 nuclear reactors that provide France with most of its electricity. [...]

                    If policies work as intended, electricity from renewables will gradually take a larger share of overall generation, and Europe will end up with a much greener form of energy. But at the moment, EU energy policy is boosting usage of the most polluting fuel, increasing carbon emissions, damaging the creditworthiness of utilities and diverting investment into energy projects elsewhere. The EU’s climate commissioner, Connie Hedegaard, likes to claim that in energy and emissions Europe is “leading by example”. Uh-oh.

                    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                    by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:42:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Methane from melting permafrost will dwarf that (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      forgore

                      We  could see something like three earth atmospheres of methane, 25 times as dangerous as CO2, suddenly released over just a couple of decades from the 25% of the northern hemisphere where its locked up in permafrost and coastal clathrates.

                      If we right now were as a planet to give up our cheap fossil energy, stop burning oil and gas and coal entirely, we would still have to deal with the ongoing and continuing effects of what we have already done.

                      We are already committed to the methane release tipping point by our past action, unless we can figure out a way to do dialysis on our atmosphere we are screwed.

                      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

                      by rktect on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 03:08:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  This is precisely the “delay” (0+ / 0-)

                      that you talk about . . . “In the very short run, that will flatten out. But by 2020, emissions will be lower.”  “Lower” . . . by far too little, far too late.  And you left out the “maybe”.  Germany’s CO2 emissions could be a lot lower right now . . . but they made the deliberate choice not to do that.  Just the opposite, in fact.

                      “Delay is denial”, someone said . . .

                      To quote again what you took from a link I provided

                      If policies work as intended, electricity from renewables will gradually take a larger share of overall generation, and Europe will end up with a much greener form of energy. But at the moment, EU energy policy is boosting usage of the most polluting fuel, increasing carbon emissions
                      “If . . . gradually”, but in reality at the moment “increasing carbon emissions”.

                      To quote someone else

                      I define delayers as  . . . the ones who say . . . that we don't have to move immediately or that doing so is blocked by too many obstacles . . .
                       But I actually give the delayers who accept AGW less credit than true-believer deniers. They KNOW better and STILL won't act.
                      Germany should re-start their nuclear capacity, shut down their coal capacity, stop financing coal capacity elsewhere,  and stop buying coal generated electricity from anywhere.  And repeat that sentence substituting “natural gas” for “coal”.  I don’t care if they cover the country with windmills and still sit shivering in the dark . . . that’s their business.  But they can’t burn coal.  And they can’t burn natural gas.  Starting now.  Anything less is delay.  

                      And delay is denial.

                      Someone said . . .

                      Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                      by Deward Hastings on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 04:01:50 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Meteor Blades
                        I don’t care if they cover the country with windmills and still sit shivering in the dark . . . that’s their business.  But they can’t burn coal.
                        http://www.dailykos.com/...
                        They are building
                        nuclear power plants as fast as they can.  Unfortunately coal is cheap, and coal fired plants are less expensive and quicker to build, so they're building them as fast as they can too.  

                        The people of China want, and are entitled to, an energy standard of living equal to the US and Europe . . . and they have every intention of getting it (since they don't have much oil they may also want electric cars (diesel exhaust is part of their air pollution problem), which will require more electric energy still).  As they get closer to meeting their energy needs they will look more and more to pollution control as well.

                        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06 , The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

                        by indycam on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 07:39:46 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  yep . . . China's building coal plants too. (0+ / 0-)

                          So is India.  Lots of them.  I've written  about it a couple times, since they will be (already are) key players in continuing rise in atmospheric CO2. They're both also building new nuclear facilities . . . just not enough.

                          Unlike the Germans they are not going backwards, shutting down functioning nuclear plants and replacing them with coal and gas burners, while cloaking themselves in the lie that they're going to run the country on "renewables".  

                          Like Germans and Americans both the Chinese will also be rolling out fracked "natural" gas just as fast as they can, also because it's quick and cheap. And not quite so dirty as coal. Maybe. One presumes that they've done the same studies that the American Government has and have determined that they can "come out on top" (through "adaptation") in the world that results.

                          Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                          by Deward Hastings on Sun Jun 16, 2013 at 04:04:24 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  what is to be done: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lehman scott

                1. price on carbon  that rises over time
                2. attack other greenhouse stuff, like black carbon (soot).
                3. transition to renewables with the same vigor that we built weaponry in WWII.
                4. support all kinds of conservation/energy saving measures with that same vigor

                if the votes aren't there for these things, make the case publicly with goal of getting public support and votes eventually.

                An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                by mightymouse on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 05:37:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  as I asked PJ above . . . (0+ / 0-)

                  what do you propose we do about "black carbon" and how do you propose that we go about doing it?

                  How quickly can that plan be implemented, and who should be paying for implementing it?

                  Which is more important . . . a "20 year plan" for moving third world countries from dirty to "clean" diesel, or shutting down coal and natural gas fired power plants now ? ? ?

                  Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                  by Deward Hastings on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 04:15:46 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  clean diesel works (0+ / 0-)

                    fitlesr + low sulfur fuel is the recipe iirc.

                    govt should require it, users should pay for it, is my preference, but whatever works.

                    as for "what is more important," why is that  an either-or with triple question marks and boldface??? the one doesn't preclude the other. do both.

                    An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                    by mightymouse on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 05:04:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well by all means then (0+ / 0-)

                      write your letters to the governments of India and Indonesia etc. about what they should "require", and tell the cabbies in Djakarta and Mumbai that it's up to them to pay for cleaning up their hacks.

                      Make it someone else's problem . . .

                      And perhaps you could read the question again, and actually answer it?  It's not "either-or", it's "which is more important".  When you can't do everything at once (and who can?) there is some value in doing the more important things first.

                      What are you doing about either?

                      Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                      by Deward Hastings on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 05:36:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  they both need doing, honestly (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't get your attitude.

                        Me figuring "which is more important" is a pointless exercise for which I'm not suited in any event.

                        And what's with the snarky "write letters to Indonesia"?

                        If the US wanted, it could exert pressure on other countries.

                        Of course, the US has to want to do so, and right now it doesn't so much. So the main job of US citizen is to get our government focused.

                        An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

                        by mightymouse on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 06:10:29 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why Indonesia? (0+ / 0-)

                          Because you brought up "black carbon".  As something we should address now.  But black carbon is not a problem in the US, at least not a significant one, while it is a problem in India and Indonesia.

                          We have to address problems where they are, don't we, not just as empty words on a blog?

                          So if you think "black carbon" is a problem what do you propose that we do about it where it's a problem . . . like Indonesia?

                          As for the US government . . . it doesn't give a fuck what you think.  It's owned by and operated for someone else, and only cares about what they think.  And at the moment what they think is "save the bankers" and "bomb Syria now and Iran next", not "stop black carbon in India or Indonesia" or "stop CO2 emissions" anywhere.

                          If the road to solving the "global warming" problem involves reclaiming the US government then, well, where are the pitchforks and when do we start.  Because . . .

                          Delay is denial . . .

                          Fake Left, Drive Right . . . not my idea of a Democrat . . .

                          by Deward Hastings on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 07:21:21 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

            •  "Solar/Wind is a joke! Could not POSSIBLY meet (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, divineorder, Ginny in CO

              our needs... only nuclear will save us..."

              Well, when 1 week's War Department Budget = entire yearly renewable investment by the most powerful nation in the world... Duh!

              Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

              by k9disc on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 01:07:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe it is too late. But the problem with this... (16+ / 0-)

          ...approach is that it is essentially a prescription bolstering those who say we should do nothing since nothing will help. So eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

          I won't go that route because I choose not to believe in despair. But, hey, I'll be dead long before the worst effects occur and it'll just be my kids and grandkids who suffer, so why should I care?

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ok maybe its too late (6+ / 0-)

            I'm not despairing, just accepting because unless we deal with this honestly nothing works. Whats coming down isn't going to be nice, kids and grand kids will curse the day they were born, and that will go on as long as humanity manages to stick it out, maybe for decades, maybe for centuries, maybe longer.

            Billions of people are going to die soon in nasty ways. You and I won't live to see it, but our kids and grand kids will.

            Tell them the truth and prepare them, maybe they'll surprise us with genetic engineering to create species that can take the heat and don't breath oxygen, or maybe there will just be mutations. Our future generations will have to make their own decisions and accept the consequences just like we will.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:50:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Are you sure? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wu ming, forgore
            But, hey, I'll be dead long before the worst effects occur and it'll just be my kids and grandkids who suffer, so why should I care?
            We're pretty much the same age, and I'll concede that I am much worse (health wise) than you.  And yet I am already seeing some pretty damaging effects of climate change.  By the time we get to "the worst" humans won't be alive anyway.  Climate change is ratcheting up right now, and will continue for the foreseeable future.
        •  The problem with doing nothing (8+ / 0-)

          is that the 99% will get triaged out of existence by those in power.

          •  And then what? (5+ / 0-)

            Who do they get to grow their food, cook it, and serve it to them?

            Randolph and Mortimer Koch, left on their own with no serfs, would starve.

            •  Their robots. (0+ / 0-)

              The labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce. Clayton Act, Section 6.

              by Ignacio Magaloni on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 11:21:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We are still at a level of technology (0+ / 0-)

                Where even robots need to be serviced by humans. Oil, and grease are consumables. Hydraulic systems have hoses and seals that deteriorate, electrical systems have fuses. Batteries need to be recharged reguiring power plants to provide electricity.

                Eventually metal fatigue is an issue, plastic has UV issues. Just like humans, robots are heat sensitive and don't function well underwater unless they have been designed for that.

                Our rovers on Mars have lasted longer than expected but can get stuck requiring human operators to get it out of its difficulties.

                I don't see the Koch brothers as ace mechanics.

                Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

                by rktect on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 02:56:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Actually no one knows (0+ / 0-)

          if it is too late.  But to allow this stupid profligate selfish system called an economy to persist is pure insanity. We really are lemmings. Imagine instead if we changed the economy so that carbon sequestration was the driver and not profit without environmental accountability.  The technologies that sequester carbon would be most treasured as well as growing plants and trees. We have to discard this ridiculous system where the carbon emitters have no accountability regarding cost.  Humanity has to ask what if the doomsayers are wrong and there really is a window of time to turn this around?  What will be lost anyway? We'll just have a healthier planet. We could grow our own biofuels in our communities and get off fossil fuel; we could stop chopping down trees to make paper and make paper out of hemp instead. We could stop fracking because water is the most scarce resource and free and abundant energy is a plenty on this planet (wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, tidal, algae)

    •  The Delayers have a much fatter pocketbook as (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, blueoasis

      well.

      What was that quote about a man not being able to diagnose a problem that impacts his salary?

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 12:55:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This ? (0+ / 0-)
        "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06 , The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. David Morrison

        by indycam on Sat Jun 15, 2013 at 07:47:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Did I ever tell you about my dissertation? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ginny in CO, wu ming

      Main point: in dealing with social problems, delay is worse than denial because it's a more resilient defense mechanism.  Enjoy!

      "I love this goddamn country, and we're going to take it back."

                                                             -- Saul Alinsky

      by Seneca Doane on Fri Jun 14, 2013 at 10:03:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site