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View Diary: Solving Rape? - A Very Short Statement For Those Who Just Don't Get It! (358 comments)

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  •  It's not that. (7+ / 0-)

    We DO teach this to men.  It's just that some men don't follow the rules.   Yes, the educational campaign could certainly be improved.  If you've found the magic educational program or legal system that is 100% effective, then please share it, because that would be way cool!!!   As far as I know, such a thing does not exist.

    It's the part about NOT teaching children about very real dangers of rape that exist in this very real world, that I object to (not find "threatening", but object to.  Disagree.  STRONGLY, VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE.  That is totally  irresponsible.   I've met those children.   They were raped.   It is very sad, and I deeply regret that they had a mother like the diarist, who either never gave it a thought, or considered it and decided not to give their children the necessary information to help them protect themselves.  It's still sad, when they have a mother who did everything she could to protect them, and it still happened.  But, at least that mother knows that she did what she could.

    You might as well say that we shouldn't bother with fences around pools for families without children, because people shouldn't trespass.   There are lot of things that shouldn't be, but that are.

    It's just ridiculous.   Totally and completely ridiculous.    Fantastic, even, as in 'living in a fantasy'.

    Again, I am not objecting to teaching men about rape.   I believe it is already done, but could be done with more emphasis.   But, not teaching girls about rape is reprehensible.

    You do a disservice to all the men here on DailyKOS, by suggesting that they were never taught not to rape.   I'm sure that if you ask them, they will assure you that that were taught this lesson.  

    Your cognitive dissonance seems to be in the area where you have to cope with the reality that some people will break rules that they were taught to follow.

    •  Thank you for your thoughts. (9+ / 0-)

      I don't think anyone reasonably believes that we should keep children ignorant, and I KNOW the commenter you replied to doesn't believe that.

      It, however, is not the point.

      I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
      but I fear we will remain Democrats.

      Who is twigg?

      by twigg on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:09:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We do teach girls differently than boys (10+ / 0-)

        and that is stupid and self-defeating, IMNVHO.

        We teach girls to be quiet and go along rather than risk making the situation worse. We teach boys to yell, scream and make a scene.

        We should be teaching everybody to fight back. I am reminded of a scene in a long-ago ABC primetime PI show, "Longstreet." The protagonist, a blind PI, was taking self-defense lessons from an instructor played by Bruce Lee.

        He had James Franciscus' character in a pretty serious hold, and he said, "What do you do now?"
        Longstreet asked, "Pray?"
        The instructor replied, "Bite!! Bite as hard as you can, and hang on!"

        We should be teaching all our kids that it's not just strangers they shouldn't trust. We should be teaching our kids, "Yell, Scream, Make a Scene!"
        And we should be teaching everybody how to defend themselves effectively. If that counts as advocating physical violence and gets me banned, so be it.

        We used to value manners and it used to be a matter of honor to behave as a gentleman. That's gone by the wayside. Time to start knowing how to deal with jerks effectively instead.

        LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 02:03:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not more emphasis (4+ / 0-)

      but they need to actually mean it.

      Also, the message "Getting what you want by coercion is great unless it's sex" isn't likely to work very well.

      Our snoops are not legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization. Of course, if they were legally authorized to snoop without legal authorization, that would constitute legal authorization. Do you feel better yet?

      by happymisanthropy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:22:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree, but... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      207wickedgood

      There has to be a balance.

      I like the new campaign (I believe in Canada) where they are advising men to, "Don't be that guy".  I think it is brilliant and it highlights the fact that a guy may think it is culturally acceptable to go out drinking with a girl and then go back to one of their residences and have sex.  Now, maybe one or both of them is too drunk to give consent.  Maybe the guy thinks that is the way sex is supposed to occur.  "Don't be that guy" makes it socially unacceptable to use alcohol to gain sex and removes the social implication that it is accepted practice.

      With that said though, I have raised four girls and they all know not to allow themselves to be in a position to be raped.  The diarist's comment that a girl should be able to walk down the street naked without being raped is true.  They "SHOULD" be able to however, unfortunately, that is not the reality of this world.  

      I am not saying that it would be here fault if she got raped but I am saying that it would be incredibly unwise for her to tempt fate like that.  I should be able to place a $100 bill on my car under my car windshield in a dark alley and nobody should touch it but I would not advise trying it.  The person who took it would still be a thief and should still be punished as such but I would have to consider I did not take reasonable precautions to prevent this.  That does not make it my fault but I would strongly advise others not to do the same thing.  Is that blaming the victim to suggest that others should not leave money out where criminals can easily get to it?

      We have to teach people not to take things that do not belong to them and we have to teach people not to rape but we also have to teach people not to leave valuables out where they could easily be taken and we have to teach people not to put themselves in positions where they are likly to become victims of rape.  It is the unfortunate reality in which we reside.

      "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

      by Buckeye Nut Schell on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:33:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Whoa. I'm not certain where all that rightous (9+ / 0-)

      anger is coming from here.  I don't believe the diarist said anything close to what you're interpreting.  The diarist certainly never said that men are never told not to rape or that girls shouldn't be told about the potential dangers of being raped.

      You can't honestly assert that it's not true that women are all too often blamed for being raped and that men are excused for raping.  If you do assert that, I will charge you with not being honest.  

      Our society has for far too long placed the responsibility for not getting raped  more heavily on the woman than is placed on men to not rape.  Other societies even more.  Look at India and what men have been getting away with there.  No just rape, but murder.

      While there's a general consensus that raping someone is wrong - and in fact a crime - and many men are strong advocates of women having the right to be free of unwanted sex, there are many other men and some women who figure it's a woman's responsibility to make sure she lives a protected life and if she fails, well, too bad.  And many, many more than just figure it's not that big a deal, so move on.

      But what I'm really trying to understand is why you'd get so upset over the concept of emphasizing more strongly that it's the man's responsibility and obligation to NOT rape and we all need to insist that any man who does be held accountable and make sure women know it's Not Their Fault.  That doesn't mean they can't be taught things to do to try and be safer.  But no matter what, if it does happen to them, It's Not Their Fault, even if they didn't do all those things on that particular day or night.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:37:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Helping with your understanding (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kevskos, splashy, TrueBlueMajority

        The reason we need to emphasize more strongly that it is the man*'s responsibility not to rape is that the rapist is the actor. The rapist is the criminal.  It doesn't matter how short a woman's skirt is, how much she flirts and teases, or how drunk she gets, if the rapist doesn't rape, no rape occurs.  That's one reason.

        Creating a culture of fear where women have to second guess what they wear, who they talk to, or whether they can walk to their car alone after work because all of those things might trip bullet-points on the checklist of "things that get you raped" is also a problem.  It is stigmatizing.  It is disempowering.  And, sure you can calmly say, well, of course it wasn't her fault, but there's always that self-assured rape apologist adding "but she could have done this differently."  That's another.

        While there's a general consensus that raping someone is wrong - and in fact a crime - and many men are strong advocates of women having the right to be free of unwanted sex, there are many other men and some women who figure it's a woman's responsibility to make sure she lives a protected life and if she fails, well, too bad.
        [citation needed].  Actually, just don't.  People who believe that this is a dog-rape-dog world and that if you get raped, well, hey, tough breaks are psychopaths.  Also, raping someone is wrong.  "General consensus" doesn't mean what I think you think it means. Paragraphs like this make you sound like an apologist for rape culture.

        *Yes, there are female rapists, too, but they're a strident minority, and female-on-victim rape tends to happen in different circumstances than male-on-victim rape, so the gendered addressing here is intentional.

        •  Ummm. Did this get posted in response to a (0+ / 0-)

          different comment maybe?  I'm the one posting about how we need to emphasize more strongly that it's mens' responsibility to not rape and that women should never bear blame for being raped.  I was responding to a comment that seemed angry over that concept.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 02:09:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Here's the problem with teaching girls about rape (18+ / 0-)

      Almost always these 'teachings' feed into or originate from serious cultural falsehoods that the teachings can actually CAUSE harm and promote rape.  

      I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting (you just say 'teaching girls about rape' - which could include what I'm thinking of or not) - so here's some examples.

      If we teach girls to not walk alone at night as a rape prevention it may suggest that stranger rape is the primary fear, when acquinatance rape is a far greater danger for most girls.

      If we teach girls that dressing slutty somehow puts them in danger it ignores the fact that the vast vast majority of rapists don't even remember what their victims were wearing.  So we're teaching nonsense.  Then when a girl is raped her failure to dress appropriately is evidence of her culpability (just as a pool owners failure to put a fence around it would be evidence of their partial culpability of a drowning - to use your example).

      The problem with teaching girls to avoid rape is that it can easily shift responsibility for rape and actually encourage, empower and protect rapists.  

      Obviously this doesn't mean we can't teach girls about the dangers of sexual assault.  But what it does mean is that many of the current efforts out there to do that are disengenious bullshit that only serve the cultural biases that protect rape culture.  

      unfortunately this makes it far trickier to provide safe teachings because people get all messed up on this issue.  (woudln't it be nice to be able to say "don't drink until you pass out" without that phrase also empowering someone to blame a passed out girl for the sexual assault perpetrated against her because it was partially her fault for breaking the rules)

    •  I agree with you, except (5+ / 0-)

      What's being "taught" is really a glom of mixed signals.

      Mom and/or health class tells them not to rape;
      coaches treating women like cattle;
      political leaders demeaning women and nattering about "legitimate rape";
      pastors teaching that women are inherently sinful and/or it's always the woman's fault.

      I'm sure that if you ask them, they will assure you that that were taught this lesson.
      Even in sub-cultures or social groups where the signal balance is really messed up (Steubenville), it's almost never 100% to 0%. That's why these guys can always quote someone who supposedly "taught" them, even though they really learned from someone else.

      The question I'd ask these guys is who was their role-model for their rapist behavior. Put a spotlight on the jerks modeling rapist behavior. Make similar jerks think twice, make them worry about consequences.

      "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

      by nosleep4u on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 01:52:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The thing is, there are mixed messages (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      All over the place.

      There isn't enough on the side of don't rape, for those that were raised in less than optimal situations, or that have mental flaws that make it so they want to do that.

      Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

      by splashy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 02:50:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with you....but..... (13+ / 0-)

      What people object to is not teaching women sensible ways to stay safe....

      .....it's blaming them for being raped because they didn't do everything possible to avoid rape.

      "You shouldn't have been in that bar."
      Yes, but it's still not her fault.

      "You shouldn't have dressed like that."
      Yes, but the rape was still a crime.

      "You shouldn't accept drinks from strange men."
      Yes, but I'd like to be able to live my life without being wary of every stranger.

      I once ran into a Vietnam war vet who went to a "women's self protection" class with his girlfriend. The usual precautions were discussed: Never park in a dark area. Carrry your keys in your hand in such a way that you can use them as weapon. Every moment, be aware of everything going on around you. Regard every man you don't know as a potential threat. Never let someone get close enough to grab you.....on and on and on.

      "It stunned me," this man said. "It was the kind of thing we were told to do in Vietnam, because you never knew who the enemy might be.  But women live with that kind of fear all their lives!"

      Yes. We do. And we shouldn't have to.

      Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

      by Sirenus on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 05:08:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  actually, we don't teach this to men (3+ / 0-)

      at least, not with the intensity with which we teach it to women.

      it is not a part of men's daily life and thinking in the same way that women, every day, have to think about don't walk down a dark side street, don't park in an unlit garage, don't get in the elevator with a man you don't know, don't get into a taxicab with two men in the front seat, don't wear that clothing in that part of town, don't go out without money to get home on your own, always stay alert when you are walking down the street looking purposeful and not distracted, don't take the stairs alone, check to make sure no one is hiding in the back seat of your car, check to make sure no one is hiding in a public restroom, don't be an easy target, if they ask for your wallet throw it one direction and run in the other direction, don't get in your car if a van is parked next to you, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.  the list of self protective things women are supposed to do is long and involved.

      I could write a list three times as long without even thinking.

      many girls and women live with the assumption that any situation on any day could be a dangerous situation.  I don't know a single man who growing up was given as much instruction about avoiding being an offender, or not supporting "rape culture" in other men.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Jun 17, 2013 at 07:25:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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